Here's a production Fender Jaco Tribute fingerboard. All production fender fretless necks should be this way.
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Please educate me on fretless side markers...
- Thread starter Claymore
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- advice fretless frets side markers
Here's a production Fender Jaco Tribute fingerboard. All production fender fretless necks should be this way.
That can be. Still 80% or more of the lined fretless basses out there have the dots between the lines.
Yea, that's understandable. And I'm sure that there are a small few carpenters who find certain laser - aimed tools to be a distraction, but they're just tools.
That's the thing with tools - they are there to benefit those who want to use them, but aren't for everybody.
So I'm googling up a storm and I'm apparently waaaay wrong. This is wild.
I can't find a *single* Fender lined fretless neck with dots ON the lines, NOT EVEN ON MY SAME BASS. Does that seem weird to anybody else? Mine is from 2001, so maybe they did it that way back then and then switched?
I also looked at a bunch of other basses... Pedulla, Ken Smith, Fender MIA/MIM... all of them are dots between frets.
Wild.
So I think at this point we've learned that we agree to disagree, that fretless side dots are where they are, and that may vary by brand, model, year, etc. And most valuably, we have learned that we all have our own ideas about the correct location. It's clear by now that we all know where the dots are on our basses and that we all believe the dots on basses we don't own are in different places than they actually are.
Awesome. Here's another picture of the Jaco bass from Fender CS straight off the website. Note the dot position different from your attachment. All of these dots are not related to the note/fret, they are in fretted position, not fretless position. Hey, I'm not saying you are right or wrong. I'm pointing out this is inconsistent, there is no standard even at the Fender facility.
Yeah. I think you could find some either way. It's totally up for grabs. It's weird that there is no consistency with all the standards in the industry. I can only speak for myself and the basses I own or have owned.
I personally think it comes down to fretless being such a small % that it's just never been something most brands worry about. There are some of us who have played fretless for a long while and would buy another fretless in the future, that's me. But I would guess many fretless buyers are picking up one in a lifetime so they don't notice that detail until later, if ever.
I think even with a bigger manufacturer like Fender, if a product manager or other employee were to bring this up in a planning session the most likely outcome is "why would we spend tooling costs on a low runner?"
I personally think it comes down to fretless being such a small % that it's just never been something most brands worry about. There are some of us who have played fretless for a long while and would buy another fretless in the future, that's me. But I would guess many fretless buyers are picking up one in a lifetime so they don't notice that detail until later, if ever.
I think even with a bigger manufacturer like Fender, if a product manager or other employee were to bring this up in a planning session the most likely outcome is "why would we spend tooling costs on a low runner?"
exactly! That is why that is the standard for lined fretless necks. Because 80% or more of the lined fretless basses have them placed that way. So that's why it can't be called wrong. Not much of a discussion I guess...
What's interesting to me, looking at the '73 factory fretless Precision and the Jaco Tribute with the dots "on the note," is the double dot at the octave (12 position). On the P, 17 inches (the nominal octave placement) lines up with the first dot. On the Jaco, the dots straddle the octave (17" lies midway between them). The latter (dots straddling the octave) is how I am used to seeing it and expect it (and what makes sense to me) on an unlined fretless... but I think I've seen folks intonate those basses using the first dot as a reference (which would work out fine with the other dots if that is where the 17" half-way point lies, but would be off otherwise).
Which all goes to show that 1) even on this matter, there is not universal agreement in construction (dot-placement) or dot-interpretation, 2) in the higher register, where there's a fair bit of parallax (and especially if the intonation is set "off" because of some discrepancy between where the octave dot(s) actually are vs. where we think they are), people using the dots for visual reference (along with their aural, tactile, and kinesthetic references) are calibrating to their own instruments (which I guess happens in any case), and 3) I forget -- but it seems there should be a three.
Between the "on the lines" Jaco and the "between the lines" Jaco basses, I think I might have a slight preference for "on the lines" -- dot and note in the same place, for me, is less cluttered, less data to process (vs. here's the dot for the 7th position, and here's the 7th position, a little past it). On the other hand, it also makes the dots less distinct -- it's easier to quickly, visually "grab" the 7th position dot in-between the lines... maybe basses with lined necks and dots on the notes should have the dots be a little more visually distinct?
exactly! That is why that is the standard for lined fretless necks. Because 80% or more of the lined fretless basses have them placed that way. So that's why it can't be called wrong. Not much of a discussion I guess...
Something being common (or the most common way of doing things) doesn't, in and of itself, make it "right" or "wrong." In this case, though, the fact that a lot of fretless players are coming from playing fretted bass and/or, with lines, find it helpful to find the dots in the same places on their fretted and fretless instruments, is a compelling argument for having them in-between the lines (whether I prefer it or not). That might make it right for a bunch of players -- maybe even the majority of lined-fretless players -- which might make it the right configuration for Fender to default to -- but it doesn't make it right for everyone.
Tradition and how widespread the practice is among bass makers might contribute to people being more familiar with a thing, which would make it easier for them to latch onto, but the fact that it's widespread, in and of itself, doesn't prove that it's better or right.
If Fender were strongly convicted that one way or the other was inherently and substantially better, they could offer basses that way (say dots-on-the-line) and try to change "fretless dot culture..." but, yeah. You pick your battles. The less-popular option could always be an upcharge-option, but that would be a pain.
As far as lined basses go, I don't feel that passionately either way (I think I could adapt to either -- would depend on how much I liked the specific bass more than anything) and, as I said before, I think whatever a particular player finds most useful is what he or she should go with. I'd be willing to accept in-between as standard (though I might want on option for "on").
On unlined basses, again, whatever you find helpful, even if it's dots in-between the notes (even if that seems crazy to me -- which it does).
If in-between is standard for lined, I'd argue that on-the-note is (even moreso) standard for unlined -- definitely more widespread. (I seem to recall coming across an unlined fretless in the classifieds with dots in-between, and passing on it for that same reason -- someone's custom request? -- not for me -- though I can sort-of wrap my head around it -- but might be just the thing for someone else.)
To clarify, I don't have the relic bass, mine is the Tribute Jazz. Actually, I think they used to call mine the "tribute jazz" and now it's just the "Jaco signature model" or whatever. Point is, mine is a production instrument vs the custom shop relic instruments.
For what it's worth (and that's not much!), I prefer the "on the line" dots. But now that I'm thinking about it, I'm not sure I really care all that much. This has been a fun one!
I agree all should be that way, but they definitely aren’t. I’ve never seen one (In person) like the pic you posted and I’ve seen dozens of Fender lined fretless necks, but it does say on the Fender web site, “Maple neck with “C” profile and side dots centered on fret marker lines”.
They should definitely do this with all their fretless necks.
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I know this is an older thread so I hope my question will be seen.
People have said here many times” If you have a lined fretless the dot position question goes away”.
How do you figure this to be?
I have noticed on my lined fretless Jazz bass these lines are not easy to see on a dark stage.
So that brings the neck side dots into play for they should be easier to see in low light compared to the lines on the finger board.
The dots on the side of my fretless are made for a fretted neck and it would a lot easier if the neck dots where in a fretless position.
So when you play a fretless do you play it in a different position than a fretted, making the finger board easier to see?
A light on your music stand?
Eat more carrots?
Thank you in advance.
Clayton.
People have said here many times” If you have a lined fretless the dot position question goes away”.
How do you figure this to be?
I have noticed on my lined fretless Jazz bass these lines are not easy to see on a dark stage.
So that brings the neck side dots into play for they should be easier to see in low light compared to the lines on the finger board.
The dots on the side of my fretless are made for a fretted neck and it would a lot easier if the neck dots where in a fretless position.
So when you play a fretless do you play it in a different position than a fretted, making the finger board easier to see?
A light on your music stand?
Eat more carrots?
Thank you in advance.
Clayton.
Apart from one (way back around 1987), all of my fretless basses have been unlined with dots 'in position'. I tend not to gaze at the finger board too much, but there are always occasions when I need a sanity-check. Those out of position dots used to drive me nuts, having to interpolate and hope. Since then I have really worked on handshape so intonation is no longer a problem, but the need for occasional checks remains. Having the side dots in the right place makes those checks reliable and secure. So I really feel your frustration. The only thing I can suggest, other than a replacement unlined neck, is blacking ocer your existing dots with a sharpie or nail polish then adding some of those high-visibility self-adhesive dots in the right place. But in any event I would caution against tilting the bass back or peering over as that will mess with your playing position and handshape. Good luck...
I defret basses on relatively inexpensive but otherwise good quality basses where the manufacturer has not made a corresponding fretless model. Up until recently, I never bothered with the side markers, usually removing them during the defret process.
A potential customer for one of mine that is now listed for sale in the usual places told me that he relies on side markers and thought that any number of good players do likewise. So I started looking into it, and the first thing I ran into was a video by none other than "Fretless Monster" Tony Franklin.
Mr. Franklin actually uses the basses Fender makes called the Tony Franklin signature model. It's a four string with a drop D tuner as standard. The fingerboard is unlined, which is my own personal preference.
Unlike a LOT of other fretless models, Tony had Fender put a side marker at the first position. Tony's reasoning is that since the spacing between notes changes depending on where you are on the board, it is helpful to know where first position is actually located. Tony also makes a point of stating that he does look down and finds the side dots useful.
Well, that certainly made up my mind as to how to install side markers on my defretted basses.
I intend to make sure that the markers are in the correct location, which is on the note (i.e. where the fret line would be if there was one). I will also make sure there's a marker for first position.
Another guy on TB also gave me a great idea, and that is to use a cubic zirconium (basically a rhinestone) as a marker since that will help on dark stages.
So, I bought a "hotfix" heating gun with a variety of tips to accomodate different size CZs or rhinestones, which just arrived today. Now the only decision I have to make is whether or not to use the same color marker or use a different color for each marker. Decisions, decisions....
As a fretless player myself, I have never understood why fretless basses have fret lines. When I was learning how to play fretless in 2010 (13 years ago as I write this), my best friend, who also plays bass, gave me great advice. He said to practice while playing in the dark, and if it wasn't dark, to play with my eyes closed. As a result, I rarely, if ever, look down. Learning how to play like that, I found I was blessed with an excellent ear so intonation came fairly easily. I also understand that it does not always come so easily for everyone.
Also, as others on this thread have observed, when it's necessary to jump up the board, it's nice to have some guidance, which the side markers can provide.
So, from now on, all my defrets (mostly on Sterling by MusicMan Ray4s and Ray5s) will have side markers, starting at first position.
Up until now, my #1 fretless has been a 70s Carvin LB 75 (I play mostly 5ers) with a lined board (purchased used) which I upgraded with a DarkGlass Tone Capsule, a GraphTech Acousti-Phonic preamp, and a Hipshot A bridge loaded with GraphTech Ghost piezo saddles. It has a J style humbucker at the neck and a MM-style humbucker at the bridge position. I can get just about any kind of tone I want on it. I am about to treat it to get rid of the lines.
But just a couple of days ago I found a bass that will likely knock the Carvin out of first place. It's an unlined fretless Stingray Special 5 BFR (Ball Family Reserve). One of fewer than 110 made in 2020.
My only bass for over 20 years was a 1977 Stingray (currently for sale in the usual locations including the TB classifieds). Unfortunately, I developed back issues (5 major operations since 2013) and have not been able to play the very heavy Stingray 4 for over 15 years. The BFR weighs only 7.9 pounds!!! I can't begin to describe how happy I was to find not only a Stingray light enough for me to play, but also a fretless one, a 5er, and an unlined fretless at that!!! All it has are side markers which is all I will need.
A potential customer for one of mine that is now listed for sale in the usual places told me that he relies on side markers and thought that any number of good players do likewise. So I started looking into it, and the first thing I ran into was a video by none other than "Fretless Monster" Tony Franklin.
Mr. Franklin actually uses the basses Fender makes called the Tony Franklin signature model. It's a four string with a drop D tuner as standard. The fingerboard is unlined, which is my own personal preference.
Unlike a LOT of other fretless models, Tony had Fender put a side marker at the first position. Tony's reasoning is that since the spacing between notes changes depending on where you are on the board, it is helpful to know where first position is actually located. Tony also makes a point of stating that he does look down and finds the side dots useful.
Well, that certainly made up my mind as to how to install side markers on my defretted basses.
I intend to make sure that the markers are in the correct location, which is on the note (i.e. where the fret line would be if there was one). I will also make sure there's a marker for first position.
Another guy on TB also gave me a great idea, and that is to use a cubic zirconium (basically a rhinestone) as a marker since that will help on dark stages.
So, I bought a "hotfix" heating gun with a variety of tips to accomodate different size CZs or rhinestones, which just arrived today. Now the only decision I have to make is whether or not to use the same color marker or use a different color for each marker. Decisions, decisions....
As a fretless player myself, I have never understood why fretless basses have fret lines. When I was learning how to play fretless in 2010 (13 years ago as I write this), my best friend, who also plays bass, gave me great advice. He said to practice while playing in the dark, and if it wasn't dark, to play with my eyes closed. As a result, I rarely, if ever, look down. Learning how to play like that, I found I was blessed with an excellent ear so intonation came fairly easily. I also understand that it does not always come so easily for everyone.
Also, as others on this thread have observed, when it's necessary to jump up the board, it's nice to have some guidance, which the side markers can provide.
So, from now on, all my defrets (mostly on Sterling by MusicMan Ray4s and Ray5s) will have side markers, starting at first position.
Up until now, my #1 fretless has been a 70s Carvin LB 75 (I play mostly 5ers) with a lined board (purchased used) which I upgraded with a DarkGlass Tone Capsule, a GraphTech Acousti-Phonic preamp, and a Hipshot A bridge loaded with GraphTech Ghost piezo saddles. It has a J style humbucker at the neck and a MM-style humbucker at the bridge position. I can get just about any kind of tone I want on it. I am about to treat it to get rid of the lines.
But just a couple of days ago I found a bass that will likely knock the Carvin out of first place. It's an unlined fretless Stingray Special 5 BFR (Ball Family Reserve). One of fewer than 110 made in 2020.
My only bass for over 20 years was a 1977 Stingray (currently for sale in the usual locations including the TB classifieds). Unfortunately, I developed back issues (5 major operations since 2013) and have not been able to play the very heavy Stingray 4 for over 15 years. The BFR weighs only 7.9 pounds!!! I can't begin to describe how happy I was to find not only a Stingray light enough for me to play, but also a fretless one, a 5er, and an unlined fretless at that!!! All it has are side markers which is all I will need.
On the side of a dark neck you can use pencil. Or you can use a silver sharpie if you want it brighter/longer lasting. I’d mark them in pencil first anyway until you know you are accurate.Mind... blown.I've been looking for an excuse to get the magic markers out.
I have two fretless basses. I find the side markers very useful, especially when playing with my band and the lighting is low.
One bass is Hohner PJ Bass F1. It's lined, but they are very very subtle. The side markers are near the fret-line, just slightly past the "fret", slightly sharp. Ive had it forever and learned how to play fretless on it, so when I play it I know to be above the dot.
My other fretless is a Fender MIM Precision that was converted to fretless by a pro. It is lined, but the lines are subtle. Since the bass was originally fretted, the side dots were in the middle of the frets. I carefully painted over the original dots with brown nail polish, and then painted white dots outlined with brown at the frets.
Here's a closeup photo of the Hohner.
Here's a photo of the P bass and my nail-polish modification.
Try my recipe, put a few careful dabs of brown nail polish and cover the existing dots and then paint a brown line right where the fret lines are, when that dries, add a dot of white or if you want to be creative something glow in the dark or neon
. See the second photo in my previous post. Give it a shot, it's reversible and super easy.
The hotfix gun and CZ and rhinestone assortment showed up today.
I wanted to practice on an inexpensive bass neck on a bass I was planning to keep. In case I screwed up, it wouldn't be a big deal.
So I measured the diameters of the CZs (3.9mm) and then measured the diameter of a drill bit just slightly larger (4.1mm) and then just drilled the hole depth by feel, making from 2-4 passes so that the top of the CZ would be level or below the height of the side of the board.
For a first attempt I am happy at how it turned out. I will have a further test tonight after it gets dark and see how much help the CZs turn out to be. See for yourself (picture attached).
Although the picture doesn't show it, I went as far as the octave markers where I put two. I will have to make some kind of guide the next time so that the holes line up more accurately.
The picture shows a CZ at first and third positions. This was a fretted bass, so, as everyone knows, the dots were in between frets. There was no dot at first position, so I added one. For the others, I used a center punch to go through the existing markers.
I wanted to practice on an inexpensive bass neck on a bass I was planning to keep. In case I screwed up, it wouldn't be a big deal.
So I measured the diameters of the CZs (3.9mm) and then measured the diameter of a drill bit just slightly larger (4.1mm) and then just drilled the hole depth by feel, making from 2-4 passes so that the top of the CZ would be level or below the height of the side of the board.
For a first attempt I am happy at how it turned out. I will have a further test tonight after it gets dark and see how much help the CZs turn out to be. See for yourself (picture attached).
Although the picture doesn't show it, I went as far as the octave markers where I put two. I will have to make some kind of guide the next time so that the holes line up more accurately.
The picture shows a CZ at first and third positions. This was a fretted bass, so, as everyone knows, the dots were in between frets. There was no dot at first position, so I added one. For the others, I used a center punch to go through the existing markers.
Please note that if yer doin' this onna Fodera, ya pro'ly should use real diamonds.
My friend has a Fodera, but it has frets. I'll ask him about it though.
