Please educate me on fretless side markers...

[dkelley]

If you think in terms of a factory built bass (Fender, Ibanez, Yamaha, MusicMan, etc.) the dots, inlays, fret slots, neck bolts, routings, all that stuff is pretty controlled. The side markers go on the neck based on a fixed design. Since fretless necks are a very low runner compared to fretted there's no cost incentive for a factory to make a different neck build just for a 2% item. For a hand-built instrument the builder has more flexibility. Best thing to do with side dots in "fretted" location is to use them like a landing light. You learn to adapt pretty quickly. Yes, it's kinda goofy to think of it as something that you and the factory know is a little nuts. Personally I just see it as a "humanizing" element. It's an imperfection that you can learn to love or ignore but short of paying premium it is something that's quite common.
Some brands get it, but most don't have any real reason to change.

Not in my experience. I've never played a factory fretless where the markers were between the frets (like on a fretted instrument). In EVERY case, and we're talking dozens of factory fretless basses here, the markers were where you place your finger - where the fret would go.

I've only ever experienced fret markers between frets on a fretless when it was a custom job after being built fretted originally, which is obviously a side effect of converting from fretted.

 

[dkelley]

I play upright, no markers of any kind, I have a deferetted PBass with dots in the middle between where the frets were, I also had an unlined fretless RBass and don't remember if it had dots or where the were if it did. You really won't need the dots after 15 minutes once your hands get used to where the notes are on the fingerboard. (although I cheated once on a recording session where I had to make a huge leap of faith to a note way up the fingerboard and put a piece if masking tape where the note was so I wouldn't miss it ... saw the bassist from Lake Street Dive do that and thought it was a good idea).

As always, I'll disagree here somewhat. I'll summarize my reasons, with facts about why, below, one more time (it's in other threads, but since we're on the topic... LoL):

Upright is very different for finding your positions by feel:

- upright is WAY LONGER SCALE LENGTH - so small positioning errors make small pitch errors.
-- electric is WAY shorter scale length - and a tiny position error makes a very audible pitch error. So you MUST be much more accurate with positioning on electric to be equally in tune as on an upright.

- upright has much less neck length from 1st position until you have tactile indicators of higher positions - like the body, heel etc. Also that length covers a smaller note range than the same length (in inches) does on an electric bass.
-- fretless electric cover at least a full 17 or so semitones before the feel changes notably, with no tactile indicators at all of where you are. My electric is 20 frets before feel change.

- Due to the much larger scale length, you have a lot more large muscle movement for each position change on upright. You can base a lot just on your muscle memory.
-- on electric, you move a couple inches laterally for each position change down low, and only around an inch up high.

- on Upright, we rarely if ever play 2 or 3 note chords, and due to large scale length, when we do play them, it's less picky about tiny tuning issues.
-- on electric fretless, I personally play 2 or 3 or 4 note chords regularly (as I do on fretted), and it is much more picky about tiny deviations in position... and this is where fret lines are not only recommended, but are practically required for consistent accuracy.

 

[MotorCityMinion]

Assuming I'm leaning towards unlined fretless (because I'm looking at Wolf basses), will the markers being basically shifted a half-step off mess with my finger positioning?

Yes, you would be a whole note off. According to my old school math and something I believe I read a long time ago, a half step is = to a whole note, tone wise, not beat. A mis-placed marker would be at 1/4 step, half way between 2 frets, if there was such a thing in the bass realm, and being new to fretless, your going to find all kinds of fractional notes very soon.

 

[bobyoung53]

So, I have quite a few basses but as of yet, I don't have a single fretless. In fact, as I think about it, I'm not positive that at any point in history I've ever played a fretless. But I feel the need to add one to my collection because... well, it's nice to have options. I keep hearing people saying about certain models "The side fret markers are in the wrong place." I don't want to buy my first fretless and find out that this is the case with my new purchase. So, TBers, how do I determine if any prospective fretlesses have the markers in the right/wrong place? Extra points if you can give examples of brands that have markers in the right places and ones that are totally off. (also, specifically wondering if Wolf brand basses are correct/incorrect) I want to buy a fretless that will make my transition as easy as possible. Thanks in advance!

Fenders are in the right place, right on the note at 3rd 5th 7th etc, old Rics are on every note which can get a little confusing way up the neck but at least they are on the note. You don't want a bass with dots in between the notes like on a fretted bass. Only companies who are trying to cut corners would do that. I don't know how much you want to spend but I highly recommend a Tony Franklin Fender, ebony neck and P/J configuration and made in the USA.

 

[Yellow Bang66]

no they are not in the same location.

the fretless has the octave dble dots lower.

They are not in the same location.

This seems way too complicated, just get a lined fretless, or get a clip on tuner & play/practice to make sure you're in tune! its good practice anyway!

 

[bobyoung53]

Ahhh, the voice of fretless reason. The upright guy. I always feel like the DB players must giggle at night reading the back and forths of the fretless electric. I play both lined and unlined, there is a training wheel safety to lines which is nice, but an exhilarating feeling of just a blank plank which is also nice. I had a wedding gig this weekend, which I took my unlined Zon to. During the the night, the stage and tent lights would come on and off intermittently leaving the band in the dark... I earned a new badge of honor. Jazz standards on an unlined fretless in the dark. (places feather in cap)

To me it's easier to intonate on an upright than on a fretless electric except way past the neck-body joint.

 

[Pirate Captain]

Assuming I'm leaning towards unlined fretless (because I'm looking at Wolf basses), will the markers being basically shifted a half-step off mess with my finger positioning? I mean, if I know the double marker is the 12th fret, my instinct tells me to finger just above that. Again... please forgive my ignorance because I know nothing about fretless. I just don't want to make a purchase I'll regret later.

I play an unlined TF sig fretless AND a TF sig fretted. The dots are in different spots and don't bother me at all. I also find lined frets confusing AF and don't really see the benefit (you don't fret ON a fret, but you do on the line...so...)

 

[GrapeBass]

Typically, if a fingerboard has fret lines (or had the frets pulled to make a fretless), the dot's are in the 'normal' positions in between the 'frets.' If the fingerboard is unlined, the dots mark where the fretline would be at those positions.

I've only had minor issues if I would jump from one to the other, which rarely happens.

 

[dkelley]

This seems way too complicated, just get a lined fretless, or get a clip on tuner & play/practice to make sure you're in tune! its good practice anyway!

No, it's incredibly simple to understand when you play one. Look at the dots, put your fingers on them. For double dot, just check where it lies by playing harmonic, or listening with your ears. It'll be a simple thing to learn.

But, yes, lines are more fool proof, and better in many other ways.

 

[jblock]

I can't deal with fret lines on a fretless. I never hit them and then just complicate matters for me. I find it much easier to have no lines and I can hear and feel if I'm off and it just a roll of the finger one way or the other.

 

[dkelley]

I can't deal with fret lines on a fretless. I never hit them and then just complicate matters for me. I find it much easier to have no lines and I can hear and feel if I'm off and it just a roll of the finger one way or the other.

Except, by the time you feel you're off (in other words, you heard it, as did everyone else), it's too late. You've now played out of tune.

I mean, yea, we all correct after we hear it, but a tool that lets you hit it in tune before you hear it out of tune and realize and correct it? That's invaluable.

In the studio - you don't waste everyone's time retaking the bass part so it's in tune on every note.

Live - you can't always hear yourself well on stage... unless you use IEMs, when moving around, etc... so having fret lines can be the difference between playing in tune and not even knowing you were off.

 

[longfinger]

General guide for fretless bass guitar side dots:

Lined fretless: dots in the same position as a fretted bass guitar (between frets)
Unlined fretless: dots on the point where that fret would be.

Good point from a post a few pages above.
Position markers vs fret markers.
fretted or Lined fretless, there is no need for fret markers.

Unlined fretless, could
- use both position markers and fret markers,
- only position markers, in the same spot as fretted
- only position markers, in the spot where the fret will be. no fret markers.
- no position markers.

 

[BurningSkies]

YOU don't fret on a fret. Some folks do - There are times when I do, when I'm in the studio mostly. It actually helps with some tone aspects to have a spec of finger on the fibrating side of

Except, by the time you feel you're off (in other words, you heard it, as did everyone else), it's too late. You've now played out of tune.

I mean, yea, we all correct after we hear it, but a tool that lets you hit it in tune before you hear it out of tune and realize and correct it? That's invaluable.

In the studio - you don't waste everyone's time retaking the bass part so it's in tune on every note.

Live - you can't always hear yourself well on stage... unless you use IEMs, when moving around, etc... so having fret lines can be the difference between playing in tune and not even knowing you were off.

In the studio, they're way more likely to just move you into pitch after the fact. Assuming your intonation is already pretty good and they're not having to sweeten every single note you play. ...though I've seen guys who are good enough to rip through a whole part and do it in a few minutes.

 

[dkelley]

In the studio, they're way more likely to just move you into pitch after the fact. Assuming your intonation is already pretty good and they're not having to sweeten every single note you play. ...though I've seen guys who are good enough to rip through a whole part and do it in a few minutes.

Man, having engineered several albums (small time) myself... I think that would be annoying as heck. Vocals? Fix them. Instrumentalists had better be able to play in tune before going into the studio though.

I know, it's simple, particularly in certain DAWs, to manually edit pitch anywhere along the timeline for a given track. I use it for vocals all the time. But to have to fix the bass player's pitch? ugh LoL. Maybe one note or two, ok. It shouldn't really have to be done at all though.

But back in the day when I was doing studio work (up until the turn of the century, after which it became very part time), there was no convenient digital pitch correction editing. You had to play properly from the start.

 

[BurningSkies]

Man, having engineered several albums (small time) myself... I think that would be annoying as heck. Vocals? Fix them. Instrumentalists had better be able to play in tune before going into the studio though.

I know, it's simple, particularly in certain DAWs, to manually edit pitch anywhere along the timeline for a given track. I use it for vocals all the time. But to have to fix the bass player's pitch? ugh LoL. Maybe one note or two, ok. It shouldn't really have to be done at all though.

But back in the day when I was doing studio work (up until the turn of the century, after which it became very part time), there was no convenient digital pitch correction editing. You had to play properly from the start.

You know, the first time after a decade that I went 'back into a real studio' aka one that was the grade that could be a major label release, etc. I found that things had changed. I had drilled our band for the first album then we went in and were totally of the 'let's do takes until we think it's near perfect'. The engineer's attitude was "I love that you guys are old school and dedicated to nailing it with the perfect take, but we just don't need to do that anymore. I have a handful of takes that are great, that's all I need. I'm going to take some additional drum 'samples' from your kit, and can fly in or adjust a note here or there. The real focus was for us to be as clean and precise in what we played as possible so that he could use it all in whatever editing.

The equation ended up being the cost of 'Live Room A' for whatever tracking hours, vs. the cost of editing vs. the cost of individuals re-tracking or dropping in bits as needed from one of the smaller recording studios (or in my case sitting next to the board with my personal DI to re-track if needed).

 

[dkelley]

You know, the first time after a decade that I went 'back into a real studio' aka one that was the grade that could be a major label release, etc. I found that things had changed. I had drilled our band for the first album then we went in and were totally of the 'let's do takes until we think it's near perfect'. The engineer's attitude was "I love that you guys are old school and dedicated to nailing it with the perfect take, but we just don't need to do that anymore. I have a handful of takes that are great, that's all I need. I'm going to take some additional drum 'samples' from your kit, and can fly in or adjust a note here or there. The real focus was for us to be as clean and precise in what we played as possible so that he could use it all in whatever editing.

The equation ended up being the cost of 'Live Room A' for whatever tracking hours, vs. the cost of editing vs. the cost of individuals re-tracking or dropping in bits as needed from one of the smaller recording studios (or in my case sitting next to the board with my personal DI to re-track if needed).

Scary, eh? When we can be sloppy and it no longer matters. It is true, though, I'm well aware.

 

[BurningSkies]

Scary, eh? When we can be sloppy and it no longer matters. It is true, though, I'm well aware.

Yeah, it was a bit of a shock for me, but also it opens one up for being able to take some chances. If you can lay down tracks effectively in a few takes, you then can also spend some time trying different options and ideas...so that's cool and opens up the studio from a really hardcore perfectionist vibe into a place for some exploration.

I do know that a few of my engineers from recent recordings DO say that they prefer working with people like us who have our material rehearsed and written and arranged well rather than people who come in with half-written material that isn't arranged. While a good producer in the studio may make some arrangement choices that are for the better (as they're 'further from the material'), there's nothing worse than having to 'write' someone's material when they should have done that already. It's usually 'younger bands' where they don't have the experiences that some of us have had from less-digitally convenient times.

 

[Killing Floor]

Not in my experience. I've never played a factory fretless where the markers were between the frets (like on a fretted instrument). In EVERY case, and we're talking dozens of factory fretless basses here, the markers were where you place your finger - where the fret would go.

I've only ever experienced fret markers between frets on a fretless when it was a custom job after being built fretted originally, which is obviously a side effect of converting from fretted.

Consider yourself lucky. Every Fender and MusicMan fretless I have and the Ibanez I used to own are in standard fretted position. (More than 10)
But that's easy to work around.
The thing that isn't as easy is the "12". On Fenders and most others there are 2 dots at the octave. These dots are nearly 1 cm apart, linear on the fingerboard edge.

 

[Pirate Captain]

In the studio, they're way more likely to just move you into pitch after the fact. Assuming your intonation is already pretty good and they're not having to sweeten every single note you play. ...though I've seen guys who are good enough to rip through a whole part and do it in a few minutes.

I keep forgetting we live in the pitch/pocket era...smh

 

[Root 5]

So, I have quite a few basses but as of yet, I don't have a single fretless. In fact, as I think about it, I'm not positive that at any point in history I've ever played a fretless. But I feel the need to add one to my collection because... well, it's nice to have options. I keep hearing people saying about certain models "The side fret markers are in the wrong place." I don't want to buy my first fretless and find out that this is the case with my new purchase. So, TBers, how do I determine if any prospective fretlesses have the markers in the right/wrong place? Extra points if you can give examples of brands that have markers in the right places and ones that are totally off. (also, specifically wondering if Wolf brand basses are correct/incorrect) I want to buy a fretless that will make my transition as easy as possible. Thanks in advance!

I think you definitely want a neck where the dots are where the fret would be. Some basses have lines on the side at every fret ( others 3,5,7 etc) and dots in between them(Rickenbacker 4003FL is an example; has dots on playing surface where fret is not). This is visually confusing imo.
I like dots or lines at the 3,5,7 etc fret locations and nothing else. My fretless Ibanez Musician bass is like this. If markers are at the fret, the 3rd fret line/dot will be 5.41” from nut if 34” scale instrument.