Please educate me on fretless side markers...

[7dollarbologna]

Assuming I'm leaning towards unlined fretless (because I'm looking at Wolf basses), will the markers being basically shifted a half-step off mess with my finger positioning? I mean, if I know the double marker is the 12th fret, my instinct tells me to finger just above that. Again... please forgive my ignorance because I know nothing about fretless. I just don't want to make a purchase I'll regret later.

Call Wolf and ask what they do and just specify what you want.

 

[Jeff Scott]

My Zons, and Martin Keith basses have the side dots in the correct locations for an unlined board, just as GoD intended.

 

[SteveCS]

I'm sorry but to me, that looks in between. The markers appear to be in the exact same position as on the fretted. Second opinion, anyone?

The fretless markers are where the fret would be, not the in-between position. This is the conventional way that would be considered 'normal' or 'standard' by all but a tiny minority of unlined players.

...
...Assuming I'm leaning towards unlined fretless (because I'm looking at Wolf basses), will the markers being basically shifted a half-step off mess with my finger positioning? I mean, if I know the double marker is the 12th fret, my instinct tells me to finger just above that.
...

As for messing with your fingerings, once the frets are gone you will have to stop looking and start listening, and you will almost certainly have to adjust your left hand technique to some degree. Once the music starts, all visual references (lines, dots, stars or stripes) become meaningless - you have to put your finger where the note is, and only your ear can be the judge of that...

If you really use visual references to the extent that instinct is kicking in, then there will be even more adjustment for you. Perhaps a lined 'board would be the right choice. There are plenty of models that have micro-lines on the side with dots at the in-between position, but from the front appear blank.

 

[drumvsbass]

Huh? That I do not get at all. It has zip to do with the end result. If you can play a fretless bass in tune and in time, with good tone, and it serves the music, how you got there is entirely superfluous. Or so I think anyway.

Exactly. It has zip to do with the end result.

 

[Reiska]

I`m primarily a DB player but love to practise and play both fretless and fretted EB`s nowadays. I have a converted fretless and so I have the lines there. I also own a beautiful unlined neck, but I much prefer the lined. Why? Some compares the lines to training wheels, and that it`s somehow manly to not have them, and that it`s bad to look at the fingerboard while playing. However, I look and need the visual cues, at least when practising, be that DB, fretless or fretted. I`m also fortunate to have, and I have worked very hard to develop a pair ears to hear where my intonation is, in relation of the instrument itself, and the music I`m beeing part of. The gag is that I mostly practise on the front of a mirror, and I mostly practise standing. The mirror image shows exactly what the audience is seeing and hearing, and it helps me to develop a necessary technique to sound good and not hurt myself when playing. It also develops a self esteem that is not bound to what all 278 unlined fretless electric dogmatics of the world says on a internet forum. Just my 2 cents, hope it helps.

 

[Geddaric]

I too am a fretless newby. Bought a $100 Glarry unlined to see how much I really liked a fretless. Doing some work to get the bass up to snuff but
as far as the dots go, I initially make sure the instrument is tuned. I have been "fretting" notes while hooked up to a tuner and use the dots to reference proper position (No, I haven`t, and won`t, gigged this bass until I`m much more comfortable with it). Maybe not the proper way but as long as its properly intonated, it appears, in my mind, it really wouldn`t matter where the dots are as long as the markings are consistent. I`m sure the lined fretlesses would be easier for a beginner.

 

[boylebass]

Welcome, brother, to the world of fretless electric bass. You have considered one aspect of this this mistress, and soon you will grow to love and appreciate the variety of articulations that your trusty left hand is capable of. The variance of tones available with right hand articulation is equally inspiring. Someday you may get all crazy and poly that fingerboard and rock some stainless steel rounds!

I'm a longtime fretless player (40+ years), and I have owned all 3 types of markings mentioned. I care more about the sound of the bass and the amount of practice time I have to devote to fretless. Your intonation of fretless is only as good as the amount of practice you put into it.

 

[DanGroove]

I'm sorry but to me, that looks in between. The markers appear to be in the exact same position as on the fretted. Second opinion, anyone?

I think they actually look different. Its a bit hard to tell as there are different zoom levels, but the side dot nearest the neck pocket looks closer to the neck pocket on the fretted which would indicate to me that the fretless marker is a bit further up the board where the fret would be. Likewise, the last fret dot seems to be closer to the end of the fretboard on the fretless.

 

[misterCRUSH]

i have three fretless basses and they're all differently marked. My fender jazz has lines, and it's spot on. My p bass has dots and they are where the frets would be, so fairly easy to navigate. My acoustic was the tough one. it has side markers but no dots. i found right away that when i looked down to see where i was all i saw was lines with no frame of reference. i ended up using silver nail polish to put a dot between the 3, 5, 7, 12th frets. it's much easier now. I have played a lot of fretless, including an ibanez portamento, which was very nice. so far all of the markers seem to be correct once the bass is set up properly. that's an important thing to remember. intonation can be greatly effected by set up.

 

[BurningSkies]

The Jaco tribute bass has them in the "wrong" place because it's a copy of Jaco's bass, which, had them in the wrong place, because...it started life as a fretted bass. Most fretless basses are done right.

I disagree about lined fretless basses not having this problem. I play on a lot of dark stages, and the tiny bit of line on the side of the neck that you can see on a lined fretless usually isn't very visible where I am. Even if it is, it's not obvious which line you're looking at at a given time. If you can see the lines (or position markers) on the front of the fingerboard, you're hunched over your bass in a bad ergonomic position. I really don't see lines on a fretless as an advantage is seeing where you are, because of this. I need good, solid, visible side dots. On my fretless, I've added more dots on the maple part of the neck to make things more obvious.

Yeah, any conversion (or tribute to a conversion) will have dots in fretted-bass position marker placement.

When I had my conversion done, the original inlay was too low contrast for me and I psychologically like to have visuals when on stage, though don't need to look. So I went further than 'good solid visible side dots'. I had the old inlays cut out and redone in luminlay. I have luminlay dots on all my 'stage' basses and my forthcoming bass will have it too.

 

[Kael]

If you can play a fretted bass without staring at the side dots, you can play a fretless with the dots in the same spot. This is not a big issue. I honestly prefer the dots in the same spot on fretless and fretted. I guess if you were a blank plank purist then that would throw you off, but the only people impressed by no fretlines are a fraction of other bassists. No fretlines makes zero sense from a functionality standpoint and is solely a matter of aesthetics.

 

[Pazelaya93]

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You need to get pics of the side dots. Since that's where the real difference is. The fingerboard is irrelevant

 

[Pazelaya93]

Yeah, any conversion (or tribute to a conversion) will have dots in fretted-bass position marker placement.

When I had my conversion done, the original inlay was too low contrast for me and I psychologically like to have visuals when on stage, though don't need to look. So I went further than 'good solid visible side dots'. I had the old inlays cut out and redone in luminlay. I have luminlay dots on all my 'stage' basses and my forthcoming bass will have it too.

View attachment 3951792

View attachment 3951793

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Fretless and fanned???
Dude that's sick

 

[BurningSkies]

Fretless and fanned???
Dude that's sick

I know a guy or two using unmarked unlined fanned fretless with no side markings either. I'm not that brave.

I lucked into a 'cheap' Dingwall Combustion at 'friend price' that gave me the opportunity to do some 'stuff' to it...like spend 3x what I paid on conversions & lots of other customization to the electronics. The end bonus is that I've been playing it non-stop since March for a bunch of hours every day.

 

[micguy]

but the only people impressed by no fretlines are a fraction of other bassists. No fretlines makes zero sense from a functionality standpoint and is solely a matter of aesthetics.

Fret lines need to be done very well to avoid having little bumps or dips in the fingerboard - I've played a few that had badly implemented fret lines - you definitely don't want badly implemented lines. A solid board (in my case, ebonol) without any cuts for fretlines is also a stiffer, more stable board (do you want someone to come into your house and make cuts in the support beams for your house?) - it makes a better neck. As side dots can give you everything you need to do your job well (you shouldn't be looking at your fingerboard - if you are, you're in a bad ergonomic position), fret lines are superfluous. As they can also have issues, I prefer to not have them - for performance reasons, not aesthetics.

We differ in our opinions. That's OK.

 

[MonetBass]

Starting out as a DB player, I learned to find some sort of visual reference when shifting up from 1st position, whether that be a mark on the neck, a unique pattern in the wood on the back of the neck, etc. So for me, as long there's some reference point (either side dots between the note positions or on them), it doesn't matter to me. Get what you're comfortable with and what works for you.

DB and EB players obviously have a different scope of experience, and therefore you will get varying opinions on this topic as a result (as you've already seen). For the record, my fretless is unlined with dots in the note ('fret') positions. It works for me.

 

[bass.slinger]

no they are not in the same location.

the fretless has the octave dble dots lower.

They are not in the same location.

Definitely different. Just look at the dot where the body and neck come together - the fretless dot is where the fret is on the fretted.

 

[jasonmatthews]

I think you have your answers, but as a general observation over a very long period of time;

Lined fretless necks have the dots in the same location in relation to the lines as the dots would be if the lines were frets, which is between the lines / frets. This applies to manufactured basses. As mentioned, manufacturers try to set up to do as few changes as possible when building, so they make all necks the same, but if they want to build a run of fretless necks, the only change is they install some kind of strip instead of a fret, and maybe use a nut with deeper cut slots.

The Jaco tribute bass has them in the "wrong" place because it's a copy of Jaco's bass, which, had them in the wrong place, because...it started life as a fretted bass. Most fretless basses are done right.

I disagree about lined fretless basses not having this problem. I play on a lot of dark stages, and the tiny bit of line on the side of the neck that you can see on a lined fretless usually isn't very visible where I am. Even if it is, it's not obvious which line you're looking at at a given time. If you can see the lines (or position markers) on the front of the fingerboard, you're hunched over your bass in a bad ergonomic position. I really don't see lines on a fretless as an advantage is seeing where you are, because of this. I need good, solid, visible side dots. On my fretless, I've added more dots on the maple part of the neck to make things more obvious.

The Jaco *Tribute* bass has side dots *on* the lines -- it's really just a fretless american j-bass. The relic model is the one with the dots where they'd be on a fretted neck. I believe every Fender lined fretless is this way. Most major manufacturer's do their lined fretlesses this way.

No. The side markers for a fretted bass are correct. You place your finger on the marker, but the fret stops the string, not your finger. The fret is the note. That's my theory anyway, and I'm sticking to it.

Well, technically, you should always fret *just* behind the fret, nearly on top of it. This is mostly to prevent fret buzz and it gives a really clean sound. Another great reason to learn this way is because if you ever play a fretless instrument you're well used to playing on the fret instead of behind it.

The problem with lined fretless bases is that learners tend to spend a lot of time looking at their fingers, in consequence they play in uncomfortable positions - either bent forward and looking down when seated or moving the bass out of the vertical when standing. These are easy ha

I have to say I don't agree that this is a legitimate drawback of lined fretless specifically. I think it's just as likely that any new player, fretted or not, will fall into the habit of looking at the fretboard too much. I also don't think that unlined fretless does anything to deter this habit.

There is absolutely no problem whatsoever with looking at your fingers while you play. I do not understand why anybody ever even brings this up. There are no awards for being able to play blindfolded and there are no fines for looking. Showmanship and putting on a good show is a thing all on its own, but looking at your fingers is perfectly fine. If you'd like an example, there's a rather unknown bass player called Jaco that played fretless, he looked at his fingers all the time!

 

[micguy]

There is absolutely no problem whatsoever with looking at your fingers while you play. I do not understand why anybody ever even brings this up. There are no awards for being able to play blindfolded and there are no fines for looking. Showmanship and putting on a good show is a thing all on its own, but looking at your fingers is perfectly fine. If you'd like an example, there's a rather unknown bass player called Jaco that played fretless, he looked at his fingers all the time!

Music, the way I do it, is a team sport. Playing church services, I'm always working with different players and singers. While there's nothing wrong with a glance here and there, one of the things I good at is working with the other folks on stage, and the vibe in the room. I practice at home to where I know the material cold - chord structure, etc. The part I actually play when I get there, though, depends on what else is going on around me. Yes, part of what I need to do my job well I can hear, but a lot of cues come in visually. If I'm not well rehearsed, I'll be looking at my fingers, and miss visual cues. I don't play without looking at my fingers to show off, I do it so I can (with others) play better music.

I also regularly play on very dark stages - the singers up front get the light, us instrumentalists at the back of the stage are pretty much shrouded in darkness. If you can't play without looking at your fingers, at times you just won't be able to play. One weekend, for part of the service, the band was supplying the "sound track" to a movie. There was no light for the band, other than what spilled off the screen. The movie had a lot of black parts - I had to play in total darkness throughout much of that. I could have asked for a light, but it would have spoiled the vibe of the movie. I'm glad I knew what I was playing, and didn't need to see my fingers for that.

In that past I've played in bands where we would sometimes turn off the lights while we rehearsed. yes, it sounds odd, but it helps you know what you do and don't know. While playing in that band, a couple of times at a club, we lost lighting, and without a hitch, we finished the song. The crowd loved it - the applause you get when you can pull that off - totally worth it.

 

[Paulabass]

I like unlined, dots at the 'frets' 3,5,7,9,12(repeat)