POLL: Fender Basses and "Dead Spots"

[Belka]

Hey wvbass

I hate to keep repeating myself - it's nothing but a big yawn for most - I realize - but my only experience with full scale basses was my 1972 Fender Jazz - with apologies to those who have heard this many times before - but the SERIOUS dead spots were from frets 4-7 on both the D and G Strings. I thought Fender was sending all the "seconds" to the GI's overseas - and maybe they were. But 8 notes suffering from ridiculously premature decay was too much to bear - and I know this sounds harsh, but the truth is NONE of those eight notes would sustain for more than a second. Do you hear me? EIGHT virtually unusable notes. Yeah, show me the "work-around". Do you blame me for being a such an intense anti dead-spot advocate?

Once I got back to the states, I sold it - never to turn back. Will never own another Fender long scale again under any circumstances. Lesson learned. I want to be sure everyone is clear - for me - any note that will not sustain for a least a solid four count - at a slow ballad tempo - I consider a dead spot. If it is ok with that test for me - and sustains nicely - I could care less about ghost notes and specifically which notes sustain more than others. No need to rain on my parade, if I can get a four count at ballad tempo an on each and every fret - I am smiling big time - and good to go. No reason to analyze any further.

BassHappy

From your description of your 1972 Fender Jazz it sounds quite obvious that the problem was not one with dead spots but something far more severe. Basses can only have one true dead spot as a bass neck only has one resonant frequency. I don't doubt that your bass had those problems, I also am pretty sure that somewhere on the G string there would be one true dead spot. It also seems pretty clear from your experience that medium scale basses do curb the dead spot problem. But with all due respect... 8 dead notes? A one piece neck with 8 resonant frequencies? No. The problems you describe have nothing to do with the bass having a 34 inch scale.

 

[BassHappy]

From your description of your 1972 Fender Jazz it sounds quite obvious that the problem was not one with dead spots but something far more severe. Basses can only have one true dead spot as a bass neck only has one resonant frequency. I don't doubt that your bass had those problems, I also am pretty sure that somewhere on the G string there would be one true dead spot. It also seems pretty clear from your experience that medium scale basses do curb the dead spot problem. But with all due respect... 8 dead notes? A one piece neck with 8 resonant frequencies? No. The problems you describe have nothing to do with the bass having a 34 inch scale.

Hey Belka

Thanks for the post! Yeah, you could be right - although many posters on here have spoken of the dead spots being @ two or sometimes three notes in a row, usually on the D or G string. From their description (not mine) - usually a really bad one with immediate drop off - surrounded by one on each side that was still bad - but not quite as bad. Maybe mine was just a defective neck for one reason or another - I don't really know. Never really thought about it that way. Wish I would have thought to swap the neck out and see what happened though. Would have been very interesting!

BassHappy
www.innertainment.net

 

[raybone]

P bass and j bass both with the same G string C# dead note. But what about E string C#? That note explodes every time I hit it.

 

[mongo2]

P bass and j bass both with the same G string C# dead note. But what about E string C#? That note explodes every time I hit it.

My SWAG:

It's a "wolftone" due to resonating.

Much heavier string so inherently more mass moving in the mag field possibly yielding more amplitude.

Different relative pickup position along the string so the pickup sees different vibrational nodes and harmonics.

Other stuff I haven't thought of yet.

 

[Belka]

Hey Belka

Thanks for the post! Yeah, you could be right - although many posters on here have spoken of the dead spots being @ two or sometimes three notes in a row, usually on the D or G string. From their description (not mine) - usually a really bad one with immediate drop off - surrounded by one on each side that was still bad - but not quite as bad. Maybe mine was just a defective neck for one reason or another - I don't really know. Never really thought about it that way. Wish I would have thought to swap the neck out and see what happened though. Would have been very interesting!

BassHappy
www.innertainment.net

Yes, your description of the bad note surrounded by one on each side is what I've experienced. When you play the dead note, you feel the neck vibrate. Just in the interests of research, here's my experience with dead notes:

My favorite bass is the the six string in my avatar. Custom built six string with 34 inch scale, three piece maple set neck , ebony fretboard. There is a minor dead note on the eighth fret of the g string, the e flat. took me a couple of years to find it.

Stingray five, 34 inch scale, one piece maple neck. Minor dead note on the fifth fret of the g string.

Custom made four string, 34 inch scale, neck through, 9 piece maple neck. Can't find any dead note

Custom made fretless five, 34 inch, bolt on, five piece maple and purple heart neck. Can't find the dead note.

Fender MIJ 80s Jazz bass special, fretless, one piece maple neck, 34 inch scale. Not sure about this one. I'm living in Ukraine right now (fun fun fun!!!), this bass is back in the UK. Can't recall a dead note but it's been a while since i played it.

Seems that neck through construction and multi-laminate necks do help out a bit when it comes to dead notes. The sixer has a wide neck; there's quite a bit of wood on it, and I found it quite interesting that the dead note on it is higher up (eighth fret rather than fifth to seventh) than most of the Fenders people have been writing about here. This would lead me to believe that on the medium and shorter scales the dead note would be pushed 'down' to a lower note, maybe even below the low E, which is why it's not an issue there. Interesting stuff anyway.

 

[BassHappy]

Yes, your description of the bad note surrounded by one on each side is what I've experienced. When you play the dead note, you feel the neck vibrate. Just in the interests of research, here's my experience with dead notes:

My favorite bass is the the six string in my avatar. Custom built six string with 34 inch scale, three piece maple set neck , ebony fretboard. There is a minor dead note on the eighth fret of the g string, the e flat. took me a couple of years to find it.

Stingray five, 34 inch scale, one piece maple neck. Minor dead note on the fifth fret of the g string.

Custom made four string, 34 inch scale, neck through, 9 piece maple neck. Can't find any dead note

Custom made fretless five, 34 inch, bolt on, five piece maple and purple heart neck. Can't find the dead note.

Fender MIJ 80s Jazz bass special, fretless, one piece maple neck, 34 inch scale. Not sure about this one. I'm living in Ukraine right now (fun fun fun!!!), this bass is back in the UK. Can't recall a dead note but it's been a while since i played it.

Seems that neck through construction and multi-laminate necks do help out a bit when it comes to dead notes. The sixer has a wide neck; there's quite a bit of wood on it, and I found it quite interesting that the dead note on it is higher up (eighth fret rather than fifth to seventh) than most of the Fenders people have been writing about here. This would lead me to believe that on the medium and shorter scales the dead note would be pushed 'down' to a lower note, maybe even below the low E, which is why it's not an issue there. Interesting stuff anyway.

Thanks again Belka

See - it wasn't my description of a bad note surrounded by one on each side - but my relating to the board what people have reported here - and on other dead spot threads. For me - I don't understand "minor" dead spots. My Jazz was "all or none" as best I can remember - either perfect or MAJORLY dead. Can you describe a "minor" dead spot. I simply don't understand. Never had one. I mean - does that mean it hangs on maybe for two seconds or three seconds - and then drops out --- or?

Please elaborate.

I mean, frankly, it has been 42 years ago, and I don't remember if any of the 4 notes in succession on the D and G string of my '72 Jazz had notes that were LESS dead than the others - I suppose it is possible that they were - all I knew is that for my musical purposes those notes were definitely unusable.

Best,

BassHappy
www.innertainment.net

 

[Belka]

Hi again BassHappy,

Ok, I'll try to explain the whole minor dead spot thing. First, and I'm sure it's been posted before, here's a link to an isolated James Jamerson track. When you hear him hit the c sharp on the g string (at about 0:31), for me that's what I call a kind of serious dead note, although if his bass was set up with lower action and roundwounds, maybe it wouldn't be quite so bad:

On my basses I consider the dead spots minor as although the notes lack a bit of volume, there is nothing like the drop off you hear on Jamerson track. They don't sustain like other notes but it's nothing like the one second sustain you describe with your old Fender or the really noticeable drop off on the Jamerson track. It sustains but you hear more of the harmonic than the fundamental. As I said, with my custom, it took me a few years to find it. What's also interesting is that it changes. In humid weather it pretty much disappears. In dry weather it's worse. If you tune the string down a whole step it disappears.

I think the reason that they are 'minor' is due a bit to the fact that all my basses are really well set up and looked after. Also, multi laminate necks tend to curb the problem as well.

Do I find them annoying? Well I did when I found them. But in a band mix you can't really notice them, at least on my basses. And right now the weather here is pretty humid so they've more or less disappeared anyway.

 

[BassHappy]

Hi again BassHappy,

Ok, I'll try to explain the whole minor dead spot thing. First, and I'm sure it's been posted before, here's a link to an isolated James Jamerson track. When you hear him hit the c sharp on the g string (at about 0:31), for me that's what I call a kind of serious dead note, although if his bass was set up with lower action and roundwounds, maybe it wouldn't be quite so bad:

On my basses I consider the dead spots minor as although the notes lack a bit of volume, there is nothing like the drop off you hear on Jamerson track. They don't sustain like other notes but it's nothing like the one second sustain you describe with your old Fender or the really noticeable drop off on the Jamerson track. It sustains but you hear more of the harmonic than the fundamental. As I said, with my custom, it took me a few years to find it. What's also interesting is that it changes. In humid weather it pretty much disappears. In dry weather it's worse. If you tune the string down a whole step it disappears.

I think the reason that they are 'minor' is due a bit to the fact that all my basses are really well set up and looked after. Also, multi laminate necks tend to curb the problem as well.

Do I find them annoying? Well I did when I found them. But in a band mix you can't really notice them, at least on my basses. And right now the weather here is pretty humid so they've more or less disappeared anyway.

Hi Belka

Again thanks for the post. I certainly didn't mean for this to turn into a two person debate. After all, it was just a poll and this is a forum for all. Maybe we should be PMing and save the members from this tedious debate!

Like most of the folks here - I think it really comes down to one simple thing - the style of music you play, and that is really the conclusion I came to with the poll. Don't really think I can remember a Jamerson track when he need to play a sustained whole note EVER, but I could be wrong - and with that sentiment is where the general attitude of the posters here lie. They apparently play a lot of up tempo tunes at their gigs and whole notes are a non-issue. When I realized that most folks with dead spots don't care one way or another - I realized that I was probably the one who was out of step.

In my band - the dead spots on certain songs would be so embarrassingly laughable - it was my band that forced me to stop using the Jazz bass and sell it. It simply couldn't cut it and it was pretty rough when they told me it had to be replaced. Luckily another band member had a fireglo Rickenbacker available - so I was able to use that until I got my bearings - and I eventually ended up opting for my own mapleglo Rickenbacker, which I used on most of "Happy the Man" - our first studio project with producer Ken Scott.

I enjoyed this discourse, but I think there are a few things here between me and the board with respect to this issue - where we have to say we simply agree to disagree. No harm no foul. This is the beauty of TB - if we all agreed on everything what a boring time it would be for all.

I think the poll was only for a certain amount of time, and that time must certainly be drawing to a close. Mods, as far as I am concerned as the OP, feel free to seal this one off and put it to bed.

BassHappy
www.innertainment.net

 

[mongo2]

seal this one off and put it to bed.

Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

 

[Son of Wobble]

The dead spots on Fenders help contribute some useable sonic quirkiness.

 

[wvbass]

Mods, as far as I am concerned as the OP, feel free to seal this one off and put it to bed.

Too bad. You are walking away when the conversation was getting interesting. You have a different point of view than others here. That doesn't make you wrong, but it could make for some interesting discussion. This thread is just starting to get into how neck construction, humidity, alternate tunings, etc. affect dead spots.

 

[BassHappy]

Too bad. You are walking away when the conversation was getting interesting. You have a different point of view than others here. That doesn't make you wrong, but it could make for some interesting discussion. This thread is just starting to get into how neck construction, humidity, alternate tunings, etc. affect dead spots.

Wow, nice to hear that someone feels that way - but I am no expert - I certainly don't know anything more about this subject than anyone else here. I really don't. I come from the "School of Hard Knocks" and enjoy passing along the information I have learned only by my experience - that is all I have - in the hopes to save others some frustration and pain - and of course, the bottom line - save them some hard-earned dollars - probing a problem that apparently there is very little solid information about or complete fixes for.

I have already stated here all that I know from my limited experience with one long scale Fender Bass - which now we all realize could have somehow been a defective neck. I wouldn't say that I completely agree or believe that conclusion - but I certainly recognize it as a definite possibility.

I don't have any further thoughts or information on the subject - other than re-hashing or simply finding new ways to re-iterate the exact same thing - it is definitely turning into a yawn - probably for most everyone.

Mods, if folks want to continue the discussion on some level - fine with me - I just don't have much to add to the conversation at this point.

However, perhaps someone should start a new thread on this or a similar subject - I truly believe that this thread expires automatically very soon. By definition - polls have a limited lifespan.

BassHappy
www.innertainment.net

P.S. Funny as it might seem, there is a great rockin' tune by my rock band VISION produced by Eddie (Hendrix/Zeppelin) Kramer called "School of Hard Knocks" here:

http://www.innertainment.net/visiontunes.html

"It's not everybody's goal - from the time you enroll - it ROCKS!"

 

[Eric66]

The results of this poll are NOT representative.
I bet that at least 50% of the people that voted 'NO', are those lucky bastards that do not recognize a dead spot at all.

 

[Bob Rogers]

For a little scientific analysis you might check out [Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

It's basic physics that every instrument is going to have resonant modes, and the conductance of energy away from the string can't be constant along the neck. If the instrument is very stiff, the conductance will be lower, so you may not notice it. Fenders with a heavy neck and tight neck joint have (in my experience) a less noticeable dead spot. Tricks like the fat finger shift the dead spot to a different place, and since they add mass, may decrease the overall conductance.

I agree that a lot of this is a stylistic issue. Jamerson played with flats and the old string mutes on. He probably was trying to figure out how to get the rest of the neck to sound like that C#. If you are into a style where sustain is important, variation in sustain is a problem.

I once had a Gibson EB3 slot head that had so many dead spots on the neck I named it after my ex-girlfriend.

 

[Bob Rogers]

From your description of your 1972 Fender Jazz it sounds quite obvious that the problem was not one with dead spots but something far more severe. Basses can only have one true dead spot as a bass neck only has one resonant frequency. I don't doubt that your bass had those problems, I also am pretty sure that somewhere on the G string there would be one true dead spot. It also seems pretty clear from your experience that medium scale basses do curb the dead spot problem. But with all due respect... 8 dead notes? A one piece neck with 8 resonant frequencies? No. The problems you describe have nothing to do with the bass having a 34 inch scale.

I you click through the link in my last post, you'll see that their model of a dead spot is different from yours. They blame an area of the neck of high conductance, not a single resonant frequency that's sucking out all of the energy. Not saying which is right. No one has a mathematical proof here. And of course, a mechanical system has an infinite number of resonant frequencies (fundamental + overtones), thought that wouldn't explain the whole area of dead spots on the 1972 JB neck. The analysis in the link does support the general idea of areas of dead spots in the neck at antinodes of a resonant mode - though these are more pronounced at the frequency of that mode.

 

[wvbass]

For a little scientific analysis you might check out [Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

It's basic physics that every instrument is going to have resonant modes, and the conductance of energy away from the string can't be constant along the neck. If the instrument is very stiff, the conductance will be lower, so you may not notice it. Fenders with a heavy neck and tight neck joint have (in my experience) a less noticeable dead spot. Tricks like the fat finger shift the dead spot to a different place, and since they add mass, may decrease the overall conductance.

I agree that a lot of this is a stylistic issue. Jamerson played with flats and the old string mutes on. He probably was trying to figure out how to get the rest of the neck to sound like that C#. If you are into a style where sustain is important, variation in sustain is a problem.

I once had a Gibson EB3 slot head that had so many dead spots on the neck I named it after my ex-girlfriend.

Interesting read. Thanks for posting the link!

 

[BassHappy]

Hey TBers

Kind of surprised this thread still lives on. Thought it would have been dead and buried by now.

I had also amassed quite a bit of research and Bob - thanks for your post. I had read it previously but since it focused more on the guitar - I didn't pay a whole lot of attention to it.

Below are a series of articles on DeadSpots - if anything violates the Terms of Service - mods - feel free to delete the post. I get so confused about the rules sometimes.

The first one is about putting lead in your pencil .
The second one QUITE REMARKABLY - talks about another Fender bass that had dead spots on FOUR notes in a row. Hmmmm, sounds VERY familiar to me Whaddya know? Seems I am NOT the only one after all.

The third is another theory about those darn dead spots.

The next is I thought an interesting quote about how basses WITHOUT dead spots sound "consistently shallow" and have "little character". Really got a chuckle out of that one.

The fifth presents another approach to the problem.

The next one is a great post from another forum where Big Daddy Motown describes how Fender has finally solved the problem - unfortunately followed by another poster who completely refutes his claim.

The last three are from bass makers who pretty much claim - except Warmoth - they have eliminated the problem completely (with apologies to those who believe "All stringed instruments have dead spots".)

Dead

In case this rather huge graphic isn't readable simple click here: http://www.innertainment.net/deadspots.html

And here are a couple dozen TBass threads on the subject. Turns out no one needs to start a new one after all and this only scratches the surface:

Dead Spots: http://www.talkbass.com/threads/dead-spots-fret-wear-on-g-string-please-help.898806/
Dead Spots on My Bass Neck: http://www.talkbass.com/threads/dead-spots.8056/
Fender Standard Precision Bass Dead Spots: http://www.talkbass.com/threads/dead-spots-on-my-bass-neck.643096/
Dead Spot Removal: http://www.talkbass.com/threads/fender-standard-precision-bass-dead-spots.980309/
Fixing a Dead Spot: http://www.talkbass.com/threads/dead-spot-removal.743976/
How Does Money Fix Dead Spots: http://www.talkbass.com/threads/fixing-a-dead-spot.710673/
Dead Spots In All Fender Jazz Basses: http://www.talkbass.com/threads/how-does-money-fix-dead-spots.859864/
Dead Frets: http://www.talkbass.com/threads/dead-spots-in-all-fender-jazz-basses.101351/
Dead Spots on the Neck of a Bolt-On: http://www.talkbass.com/threads/dead-frets.703442/
The Bass I Want Has A Dead Spot: http://www.talkbass.com/threads/dead-spots-on-the-neck-of-a-bolt-on.743050/
Confirming the Dead Spot Cure: http://www.talkbass.com/threads/the-bass-i-want-has-a-dead-spot.742883/
My Journey to Rid MIM Jazz Fretless of Dead Spots: http://www.talkbass.com/threads/confirming-the-dead-spot-cure.747832/
Dead Spots: http://www.talkbass.com/threads/my-journey-to-rid-mim-jazz-fretless-dead-spots.559654/
Dead Spots On Fenders, Huh? http://www.talkbass.com/threads/dead-spots.816776/
Strings that Minimize Dead Spots: http://www.talkbass.com/threads/dead-spots-on-fenders-huh.1077868/
Can Dead Spots Be Fixed? http://www.talkbass.com/threads/strings-that-minimize-dead-spots.822143/
New Bass and a Dead Spot: http://www.talkbass.com/threads/can-dead-spots-be-fixed.423048/
Rickenbacker Dead Spots: http://www.talkbass.com/threads/new-bass-and-a-dead-spot.901184/
P Bass Dead Spot: http://www.talkbass.com/threads/rickenbacker-dead-spot.853266/
Dead Spots on a G String – Why? http://www.talkbass.com/threads/p-bass-dead-spot.115899/
Dead Spots? http://www.talkbass.com/threads/dead-spots-on-g-string-why.1037591/
How Do I Eliminate Dead Spots: http://www.talkbass.com/threads/dead-spots.845296/
http://www.talkbass.com/threads/how-do-i-eliminate-a-dead-spot.609167/ Spots and Fret Wear on G String, Please Help: http://www.talkbass.com/threads/any-advice-to-remove-dead-spots.999039/
Any Advice to Remove Dead Spots? Dead

Again, mods fire away and feel free to close this as far as I am concerned - the clock is ticking - surely it will self destruct soon anyways - all polls do.

Best to all and thanks for the lively discussion. I for one really enjoyed it overall!

BassHappy
www.innertainment.net

 

[mongo2]

Try a short or medium scale.

 

[itchy]

I can tolerate a dead spot on the G string...
...but I hate when it's the "D" on the G string, and the OPEN G string is also dead.

I have had luck de-emphasizing dead spots by changing to med-lite or lite gauge strings. I believe the instrument's resonant frequency has some sort of relationship to the amount of tension on the neck. (?)

 

[shorty4life]

I just bought an (obviously) used Yamaha Motion MB-III yesterday. It's a full 24 fret neck on a 32" scale. Not a dead note anywhere! I'm 2 for 2 on medium scales with no dead spots

First I strung it with medium guage rounds and all the notes sustained out. Then strung it with medium guage GHS Brite Flats (half-rounds). Sustain was expectedly shorter, and tension much greater. But still no dead spots. Decay times decreased pretty evenly as I moved up thru the higher registers of the neck