Schroeder Cabinets ... smart design = very compact ! (regular and lights)

[Nightbass]

I got it off his website www.bergantino.com
Go to the 'Products' link and scroll down to the HT322 info.

You're right, I missed it because the page didn't wrap. I thought you got it from an email or something.

In a sense, "2.83V" sounds more precise and more honest than "1W", because the latter could be tube watts or British watts or...

 

[geshel]

The Eden 410XLT, going by published stats, is louder and deeper as well, but much heavier and larger. Of course, published stats don't really tell you how it sounds It's possible that in using the space saving folding technique, the 24lb. difference between the cabs was lost.

Not a terribly strong argument you're making -- Pete's point is that loud, low, and small are generally mutually exclusive. "there are louder, and lower cabs out there, but yes they are much larger". Uh huh!

And it's not the weight that the physics describes, but the size (volume) -- so the 24lb difference isn't important, the fact that folding the front of the cabinet around reduces the internal volume even further is. A cab like the 1210 has a very small per-driver internal volume for an MI speaker.

I have yet to ever see any driver specs anywhere that would allow for 99dB at 1w at 40Hz with only about 0.6 cubic feet per driver (1010 specs, assuming that 40Hz is a -3dB point -- Jorg, if you say 40Hz, that means you've measured it, right? What is it then, -3dB? -6dB? -? I'll be patient and wait for the full specs, if you'll be patient and not advertise half of the numbers that are meaningless without the other half ).

 

[Nick man]

Brian, I will buy but only if the rolloff specs jibe with my expectations.

I don't expect the specs to tell me how they'll sound, but I do expect they'll at least tell me what I want to know - what frequencies are there at what proportions.

I echo Petebass' sentiments and concern. I don't think anything he said was rude or implied he felt these cabs were misrepresented. I've emailed with Jorg and feel sure he's completely honest. All his customers here are more than pleased. So far so good.

I'd try a trial run, but for cross-border shipping it's too much a hassle if I can instead just wait awhile instead to get the specs and be more sure of my decision. I understand they're coming, so no problem waiting.

What he said.

 

[Brian Barrett]

Smash

My statement didn't really have to do with Schroeder but more of the direction someone was taking on spec's from a nother cabinet builder and what was being said about him.

Either way, maybe one day you can hear the cabinets first hand and you will find out if they are right for you. Till then I'm sure their are cabinets that will work for you. Personally, I take more into account of what people are saying in comparison to other cabinets more to heart then number's. But to each his own.

I think the Spec things is getting old. If Jorge wish's to post spec's then he will. many don't post spec's and only a hand full do. The fact is are they true spec's or are they fudged a little......

Best thing is to probably have someone test the spec's that owns a cab and tell you their findings. I'd be curious to the finding's myself and at the same time testing Eden's and other cabs.

 

[John D Harris]

...

Best thing is to probably have someone test the spec's that owns a cab and tell you their findings. I'd be curious to the finding's myself and at the same time testing Eden's and other cabs.

I would cooperate with this (using my 410), if there is a way to make sure all sides (including Jorg) agree with the conditions and equipment used, just to keep things as fair and balanced as possible. Design criteria should be allowed to be considered, since these cabs project sound a little differently.
Where do you put the mic, directly in front of the front-firing drivers or off to the side a bit toward the angled drivers?

FWIW: My perception of the low end of the 410 at our outdoor gig was that it was seriously kicking down to low 'B' and I had it raised a foot off the ground.

That doesn't tell the spec freaks (of which I sort of still am one) very much.
The Berg HT322 is rated to 39Hz and has very good percieved response down to low 'B'.
The Schroeder 410 has a somewhat similar tone and edginess at the low end, but to my ears, with my rig, sounds noticably tighter all the way down.

[I'd love to hear a drop-tuned (ADGCF) Dingwall played through this thing.]

 

[Petebass]

To those who thought my little attack was harsh, I apologise.To those who agree with me, thank you.

Can I just clarify my position. I'm not in a hurry for those specs. I understand these things take time. All I was after was clarification that there were plans to release specs at some stage. Brian I thought you were dodging the question and that made me a little suspicious. But I'm satisfied with Jorg's response that NAAM is his current priority and spec measurements can wait. I certainly don't expect Jorg to drop everything and cater for a bunch of internet forum loudmouths

 

[slinkp]

Since there's no Schroeder dealer in New York, I ordered a 1210 to hear it for myself. If Mohammed can't come to the mountain...

HIya Scooperman,

I am REALLY interested in these schroeder cabs, especially the 1210. I currently use one or two EA CXL 112 cabs with an Eden WT-300.

I live in Brooklyn. Any chance we could hook up so I could hear your cab? (if it's even arrived yet).

I'd be happy to post my opinions here. I am very critical of low end response, most bass cabs I've tried have humps and dips in the low-frequency response that drive me nuts - it's why I retired my Eden 210XLT and got the EA cabs.

Thanks much!

-- Paul Winkler

 

[ESP Eden]

Has anyone tried turning one of the cabs on its side so that the side firing speaker is aiming at your head?

 

[Scooperman]

James -You probably could put the cab on its side. I expressly asked Jorg if this would cause a problem (some drivers don't like it when placed on their backs) and he said it was OK. However, I'm not really sure if that would be that beneficial for your intended use, as the sideways drivers are for projecting long distances and the front firing driver is for having presence when close to the cab (as I understand it). If that's the case, it might be better to angle the cab towards your head or to simply put it on a chair, as it is small enough to do that. Still, experimenation could yield some interesting results.

Paul - I live in downtown Manhattan. I'm sure we could arrange some kind of cab audition. I plan to compare the 1210 against the Acme Low B2 as well as the CXL12. Power would come from an iamp800 and a Demeter/Stewart rig.

The only catch is that we would have to take the gear someplace other than my apartment if we wanted to crank it all the way. My neighbours are understanding, but not that understanding. I'm thinking of renting a rehearsal room for a couple of hours.

 

[PhatBasstard]

Has anyone tried turning one of the cabs on its side so that the side firing speaker is aiming at your head?

I do that on gigs with my Tech cab. It's so low to the ground that If I can't find a way to tilt it up at me or raise it somehow, I frequently put it on it's end with the horn and side firing 12" at the top. It works well and looks kind of cool too with my amp head sitting on it.

 

[Ericman197]

Not a terribly strong argument you're making -- Pete's point is that loud, low, and small are generally mutually exclusive. "there are louder, and lower cabs out there, but yes they are much larger". Uh huh!

And it's not the weight that the physics describes, but the size (volume) -- so the 24lb difference isn't important, the fact that folding the front of the cabinet around reduces the internal volume even further is. A cab like the 1210 has a very small per-driver internal volume for an MI speaker.

I have yet to ever see any driver specs anywhere that would allow for 99dB at 1w at 40Hz with only about 0.6 cubic feet per driver (1010 specs, assuming that 40Hz is a -3dB point -- Jorg, if you say 40Hz, that means you've measured it, right? What is it then, -3dB? -6dB? -? I'll be patient and wait for the full specs, if you'll be patient and not advertise half of the numbers that are meaningless without the other half ).

ohhhh, I see what you mean. I messed up. You know, you're right about the internal volume... there really should be more volume for those speakers. I'm sure it's physically possible though, as I haven't heard anyone complaining about the lowend or volume. Probably a different porting technique, or maybe just a little magic. As soon as I get the cash I'll be ordering one; my review will be very interesting, as I have a very unique point of view ( that of the clueless person ).

 

[PhatBasstard]

...I have a very unique point of view ( that of the clueless person ).

Not as unique as one might think.

 

[slinkp]

Paul - I live in downtown Manhattan. I'm sure we could arrange some kind of cab audition. I plan to compare the 1210 against the Acme Low B2 as well as the CXL12. Power would come from an iamp800 and a Demeter/Stewart rig.

The only catch is that we would have to take the gear someplace other than my apartment if we wanted to crank it all the way. My neighbours are understanding, but not that understanding. I'm thinking of renting a rehearsal room for a couple of hours.

Yeah I'm in much the same situation here. I'd happily chip in for the room and help you lug stuff for a chanace to hear these rigs - I've never heard an Acme cab yet either.

I can also bring my WT300 for comparison with the other heads.

Do you have a CXL112 too, or were you referring to mine?
Lugging a cabinet from here is tricky, I haven't been gigging much and I sold my car :-\

 

[oddio]

Personally I have a lot of interest in the raging debate but have to agree with Smash. I'm watching for the reviews, the comparisons and hopefully some specs.

Reproducing the 31Hz fundamental of an open B audibly is of paramount importance to me. Currently that is met spectacularly by my Acmes as I have near-limitless power to drive them properly, however I might consider adding Schroeders if they meet this requirement.

That said, I understand the laws of physics all too well. Living up here I'll certainly not get the chance to try these out in person, so I'll have to be content to watch this thread for now.

 

[joeeg33]

Hello all,
Well, I took the plunge yesterday and ordered a 1010 cab with Brian yesterday morning. The first positive, both Brian and Jorg responded to my E-mails in a timely manner. Also, Jorg shipped the cab yesterday, I got lucky he had one 1010 ready to go.
So, I should receive it by Tuesday the 20th. I have 6 gigs from Wed-Sunday so I will have a chance to put it thru a nice test. A couple of the gigs are weddings, and a couple will be at some of the bigger clubs in NJ. My main cab has been a Eden 2x10", powered by either an old GK 800, or a new GK 1001 markII. I will post a review after all the gigs next week.
If anyone here from TB is interested in checking it out, feel free to contact me, I live in NJ at the shore area.

Regards,
Joe

 

[James Hart]

If anyone here from TB is interested in checking it out, feel free to contact me, I live in NJ at the shore area.

Where at? I'm in Toms River. I'm trying to get a gear testing get to gether going. I'd be interested in hearing the 1210 vs. the 1010

 

[joeeg33]

Hey Man,
I am in Seaside Heights, right over the bridge from you. I would be into a get together. My only night free until the end of the summer is, Monday nights.

Joe

 

[tombowlus]

I can't wait to compare the Schroeder to my EA2x10VL-B, who knows, it's never too late to change...

ciao,
~S~

Once you get a chance to compare a Schroeder cab to your VL-210B, please share your thoughts with me (and all of us!), if you would.

Tom.

 

[Mark Reccord]

WHAT??? I would have thought that an EE like Jim would be the LAST person on earth to use that potentially deceptive practice!!!

The Berg 322 is a 4 ohm cab, and 2.83V into 4 ohms is 2 watts, not 1 watt. Anyone can see that if a cab driven with 2 watts instead of 1 watt will be louder, 3dB louder to be precise. So that makes the 322 look more efficient (on paper) than it really is. See the problem?

Correcting for true one-watt power, the 322 would then be 101d/W/m.

Lo-Freq, I hope you have your info correct because if Berg is really using 2.83V instead of the industry-standard 1 watt, it's skewing the comparisons to other cabs (unless they too are using this trick).

Nightbass (a Bergie owner, btw, with more on the way)

This isn't a trick. It's actually a more honest way of rating speaker sensitivity. Using an output voltage instead of power levels things out so you can make legitimate comparisons between cabs with different impedances and it's more analagous to the real world. Say, if you were comparing cabs, one at 8 Ohms, one at 4. You'd typically keep the amp settings the same, right? But, in order to have the same amount of 'power' dissipated you'd need to turn the amp up for the 8 Ohm box. So assuming the amp settings remain the same, if the sensitivity of the cabs is based on 1W/1m, that could cause a bit of a problem. If both boxes had identical 1W/1m senitivities, with the amp at the same settings the 4Ohm box would be 3dB louder than the 8 Ohm one, by virtue of it receiving more power.
So what you'd hear wouldn't match the specs.
This is another instance where the 'industry standard' isn't necessarily the best way to do it.

More manufacturers should do this.

 

[Scooperman]

Yeah I'm in much the same situation here. I'd happily chip in for the room and help you lug stuff for a chanace to hear these rigs - I've never heard an Acme cab yet either.

I can also bring my WT300 for comparison with the other heads.

Do you have a CXL112 too, or were you referring to mine?
Lugging a cabinet from here is tricky, I haven't been gigging much and I sold my car :-\

I have a CXL112 (actually an iamp 800 with the head removed), but bring your WT300 if you want. For transportation I spoke to a friend who plays Hammond B3 organ (read: owns a van ) and has access to a large space on the ground floor in lower mid-town. He'll have an interesting perspective on the relative sounds as well. I wonder how these cabs will sound powered by the amp he uses for his Leslie...

If you want, you can PM me about when we can do this.