I remember those threads Jimmy. That is a total jerk move when you've obviously spent money, time, and thought on a reasonable pro solution of a compromise and they still won't work with you. That would really tick me off.
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Yeah, Entwistle and Squire had sound techs tell them their sound was garbage until they got known for those sounds which are now beloved classic sounds. And that's the problem I have with your post. Who defines "garbage," the bassist or you?
This has not been my experience at all. Most of my worst sound engineer encounters have been with frustrated musicians.
First off, they "know" what bass, or drums, or whatever are *supposed* to sound like. So rather than work with the band's sound, polishing it and making FOH a louder version of the band itself, they engage in being some kind of ersatz record producer putting their "sonic stamp" on the band. This often leads to cookie cutter mixes where every band, whether rock, reggae, or Americana, whatever they may be, ends up sounding like whatever the frustrated mucisian's style of music was, whether metal or modern R&B or classic rock.
On the other hand, the best engineers I've worked with were not players, or at least not performers, and had their egos tuned to making the band, whatever they were, sound like the best version of themselves.
I would probably flip if someone put a cold drink on my amp, especially if it was in an glass or cup... but getting all aggro over some turned knobs apparently isn't my thing 
I don't means this negatively but this thread illustrates how many of us operate on different planets - sonically that is.
\m/
Depends on perspective and location of the listener. If a guitar player dials in their tone of the gods with their amp aimed at their knees, then their ears aren't gonna be a good judge of the sound that is actually coming out of the amp/speaker. i.e. what FOH has to work with.
JimmyM. Regarding your comment on judging other players tone, I did not like Entwistles tone when I first heard it. Here is my theory on some aspects of what we humans like.
I think there is a psychological phenomena involved here. I don't think Entwistles tone sounds good. But we humans develop a liking for things associated with the environment in which we encountered them. There is the nostalgia effect of hearing the Who on the cassette player in the car while riding around with your friends smoking a joint, and doing the things young men do in their teens, or twenties that you associate with hearing it years later. I did not like his tone when I first heard it, but I guess it fits the sound of the Who. If you grew up living with a tribe of indigineous Amazon Indians you might think that fruit bat intestines are a delicacy, because that is what you grew up eating. In part we grow to like what we have experienced as opposed to experiencing something and liking it immediately. This effect could play a small part in why I own 16, or 17 pieces of Ampeg equipment.
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Truth be told though, a fair number of amateur musicians really do create horrible sounds at the source. I’m talking about objectively horrible. Like booming unusable bass or icepick frequencies that peak painfully in the room, causing people to grimace and cover their ears. I don’ t blame soundmen, especially ones that work for a lot of local acts, to set their expectations to the lowest common denominator and just ask for pre-eq DI.
This really happened? What a jerk! Too bad you didn't have a soft drink in hand so you could have an "accident" on top of his keyboard. Well, I really don't mean that...or maybe I do...unbelievable, indeed!
Sorry to jump in but I'm gonna
If someone doesn't put in the time and effort to develop the tone they want (or mess it up because they are inexperienced) I don't think it is the soundman's job to "save" them.
If your not happy with your tone at the source you won't be happy with it anywhere else.
Speaking for myself this is something I learned through experience.
And if your goal is to please an audience - you'll know when you're not...
This. We've had the same sound guy, off and on, for years. I consider him one of the best sound guys in our town(although he does like it a bit too LOUD occasionally)and I consider him a friend. I have told him if he feels the need to make adjustments to my rig, to come up and do it. My only ask of him is that he tells me what he's adjusting, and if I don't like it, we find a compromise that we are both happy with. Plus, if he blows something up, he gets to fix it. It's worked for the last few years.
No one else touches my rig.
I feel like this is the sort of thing that ends in a cross-county police chase.
But seriously though, did the sound guy not ask first or what? I get why they might want your settings changed, but why would anyone just do that without asking first?
But seriously though, did the sound guy not ask first or what? I get why they might want your settings changed, but why would anyone just do that without asking first?
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I've asked many a sound tech to tweak my amp, mostly at small clubs where bass sound relies on the amp itself. If the end result happens to be too far from my sound I will discuss it with the tech to arrive to a compromise point. I don't find somebody adjusting my amp a dishonor or anything, being flexible and practical always helps and gets the best from other guys. IDK, for me a guy who knows how the room sounds and how to make my sound suit is certainly of good value, it'd be foolish of me to state some plain denial rule on the subject. OTOH, a tech with bad manners or tech-less/esoteric arguments is harder to turn into an ally, of course, basic human value definitely matters when obtaining the best of each other and some people (mostly the defensive/occultist kind) are hard to work with.
Sorry to jump in but I'm gonna
If someone doesn't put in the time and effort to develop the tone they want (or mess it up because they are inexperienced) I don't think it is the soundman's job to "save" them.
If your not happy with your tone at the source you won't be happy with it anywhere else.
Speaking for myself this is something I learned through experience.
And if your goal is to please an audience - you'll know when you're not...
Deal with people making funny faces and telling you how crappy the mix is.....and it will motivate you to try to save it in order to save your very reputation as a FOH person.
There is a funny t-shirt that summarizes the FOH experience:
This summarizes it well. Lots of peeps on TalkBass are the upper tier and really do know what they are doing and know tone. But in the real world, there are a glut of completely clueless musicians for every 1 good one.
Had he done that to me, he would have pulled back a nub.
I don't mind FOH "tuning" their board how they see fit. Doesn't bother me in the least. But hands off MY amp. No Toucho.
I've dealt with many sound guys and never had one come up on stage and adjust my amp. I would put a stop to it immediately. All my bands shows use FOH, so when I book a show I immediately send our preferred sound guy the dates. We are booked right now up until September and I have already booked him for everyone of those shows because I trust him. He is the type of sound guy that knows he works for the band and does his best to get the band sound out to the audience which is what I believe every sound guy should do. And he does an excellent job.
I agree that there are also sound guys out there that think they know how every band should sound and try to put their stamp on it. Those are the guys I have learned to stop using. I didn't blow a lot of money on gear to not have my sound go out into the audience. I know one guy like that who thinks he is an expert on sound. He shows up late and when you tell him you can't hear the bass because the guitar is too loud in the mains, he says he can hear it fine. Then when you tell him the guitar doesn't sound the same out of the mains as on stage, he says that is the way it is supposed to sound. We don't use him anymore.
Now when we have played a venue that has their own sound, I generally find that they know what they are doing and work well with us in the getting the best sound out to the audience. But if I were to have a legitimate problem with what the sound guy is doing, I would not be afraid to inform the venue of what is going on. He is after all an employee of the venue, not the boss.
I agree that there are also sound guys out there that think they know how every band should sound and try to put their stamp on it. Those are the guys I have learned to stop using. I didn't blow a lot of money on gear to not have my sound go out into the audience. I know one guy like that who thinks he is an expert on sound. He shows up late and when you tell him you can't hear the bass because the guitar is too loud in the mains, he says he can hear it fine. Then when you tell him the guitar doesn't sound the same out of the mains as on stage, he says that is the way it is supposed to sound. We don't use him anymore.
Now when we have played a venue that has their own sound, I generally find that they know what they are doing and work well with us in the getting the best sound out to the audience. But if I were to have a legitimate problem with what the sound guy is doing, I would not be afraid to inform the venue of what is going on. He is after all an employee of the venue, not the boss.
