Source Audio Sorcerers Society (S.A.S.S) Part 3

[Gibs210]

I miss my Vertigo. I have few pedal regrets. Getting rid of that is one.

Also:
Your knobs. Tell me of your knobs.

Got them from RadioShack, there’s 2 per package, looks like they’re BOGO free right now too.

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Also, for those who were curious, this is the thread on tgp about my board build

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And cuz I’m anticipating questions about the white pedal with the disaster area badge:

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[gregmon79]

By the way, here’s my board the day I got the tourbox:

And here it is now:

It’s actually the same original pt 1, I welded a fifth row on the back to make room for reflex and a pedal above it. But that’s a separate story, I’ll find the tgp link on that later.

Hell yes!! Very nice dude. Welcome to the community! Here anyway. Sounds like you've been rooted in the SA community for a while though. Love the board.

I miss my Vertigo. I have few pedal regrets. Getting rid of that is one.

Also:
Your knobs. Tell me of your knobs.

I actually miss the Para EQ. What a magnificent pedal.

 

[Robertron]

Here we go!

 

[GMC]

View attachment 3529108

Here we go!

Nice, just remember to set the Hub as Midi channel #1. It seems to prefer it.

 

[Robertron]

Thanks! Yeah I let enough other people in this thread be giunea pigs before I ordered mine so I'm ready for the troubleshooting.

At the moment I'm still programming presets inin the Aftershock and C4 and just using the Hub for expression control, which has been a blast.

@rsmith601 Any ETA on Hub - C4 integration? I'm holding off on my midi controller of choice until then.

 

[rsmith601]

Thanks! Yeah I let enough other people in this thread be giunea pigs before I ordered mine so I'm ready for the troubleshooting.

At the moment I'm still programming presets inin the Aftershock and C4 and just using the Hub for expression control, which has been a blast.

@rsmith601 Any ETA on Hub - C4 integration? I'm holding off on my midi controller of choice until then.

The beta testers will start with their updates in about 1 week.

 

[BurningSkies]

Nice, just remember to set the Hub as Midi channel #1. It seems to prefer it.

Question (I haven't set up my hub yet). I'm using it as a pass-through for my C4...which natively comes set to MIDI 1. Both Hub and C4 on 1, or do I need to do something else? Again, not setting up scenes or anything like that just want to pass CC.

 

[Chace90]

Question (I haven't set up my hub yet). I'm using it as a pass-through for my C4...which natively comes set to MIDI 1. Both Hub and C4 on 1, or do I need to do something else? Again, not setting up scenes or anything like that just want to pass CC.

Should be good to go!

 

[moishelichtfuss]

Wellwell, Thomann notified me that the C4 will be delayed for another week (17th September now). Just airing my grief.

 

[Gibs210]

Question (I haven't set up my hub yet). I'm using it as a pass-through for my C4...which natively comes set to MIDI 1. Both Hub and C4 on 1, or do I need to do something else? Again, not setting up scenes or anything like that just want to pass CC.

For that use, yes it should be fine. However if you plan on using more than just PC messages and/or want more pedals connected to the hub in the future, it’s best to switch the channel now as once c4 gains support and you can save it to the hub, it will be a lot of work going back and changing the midi channel, because then you will have to change it on each individual scene within the hub, as well as on the c4 itself. Trust me, I learned this the hard way.

 

[Robertron]

For that use, yes it should be fine. However if you plan on using more than just PC messages and/or want more pedals connected to the hub in the future, it’s best to switch the channel now as once c4 gains support and you can save it to the hub, it will be a lot of work going back and changing the midi channel, because then you will have to change it on each individual scene within the hub, as well as on the c4 itself. Trust me, I learned this the hard way.

Good to know. How do you have the Hub and One Series pedals configured then?

 

[BurningSkies]

For that use, yes it should be fine. However if you plan on using more than just PC messages and/or want more pedals connected to the hub in the future, it’s best to switch the channel now as once c4 gains support and you can save it to the hub, it will be a lot of work going back and changing the midi channel, because then you will have to change it on each individual scene within the hub, as well as on the c4 itself. Trust me, I learned this the hard way.

So, here ends up being the question, and while I use other MIDI pedals none have this sort of 'daisy chain' through thing happening. How do my controllers 'see' the C4 when it's attached to the hub? So, for instance if I have my Hub on MIDI1 and my C4 set to MIDI4, and I have my ES-5 programmed...I assume I issue commands to MIDI4 and use CC's for everything (for now) and the Hub is mostly 'invisible' since I'm not using it for 'scenes'?

Right now I have two controllers, a DMC=3XL and the ES-5

The chain runs DMC-3XL->ES-5->(pedals (1-2-3)). The DMC 'ignores' the ES-5 as a MIDI device (Not programmed to see it on it's channel) and just passes signal through. Is the hub similarly 'invisible'?

When I create my patch on my ES-5 and trigger on the C4 (and whatever patch I want) + additional pedals, I assume I'll use the expression on the ES-5 rather than the Hub? Similarly, if I add something like a AS to the setup, I assume I can program that too like my other stuff? Pick the MIDI channel use CC or PC from my devices or will I have to create 'scenes'?

 

[Gibs210]

Good to know. How do you have the Hub and One Series pedals configured then?

Here’s my rig:
Soleman: 1 (soleman does not pass midi through, so if I had another controller connected to its in, it could only pass midi to the soleman anyways).

Hub: 1
DA smart switch: 2
Reflex: 3
POG2: 4 (modified for midi PC recall of 8 onboard presets, plus knobs mode)
Gemini: 5
LA lady: 6
Nemesis: 7
Ventris: 8
Vertigo: 9
PEQ: 10

If I didn’t use the hub for anything but program changes, and had no plans for making more complicated changes via CC, then the one series pedals would all be on the same channel as the hub, since would not be doing anything complex enough to need dedicated control of each pedal.

If I had only the nemesis or ventris (will say ventris only for this example), then I could get away with some CC messaging to the ventris, and programming the other pedals to CC values not used by ventris. But now you are sending a CC message to all the pedals, but only the one with that specific value is responding to it. Should work ok, but there’s a chance for something to go wrong with this (like accidentally mapping that CC to another pedal, now your controlling 2 pedals with the same CC).

Additionally, I could remap all CC values on all the pedals and use just the messages I need for each pedal, but again, you risk the above situation, and then your scratching your head, trying to figure out what the heck is going on with your board.

Finally, it’s best to give each pedal its own channel from the get go, as changing your mind down the road, means you are now having to go through each scene and manually reprogram the midi channel for each pedal connected to the hub and redacting the scene. So if you have all 128 scenes filled, that’s a lot of reprogramming, ultimately, I cleared the hub and started from scratch when I did this.

So in short, my suggestion is always to give each pedal its own channel the moment you connect it to the hub, before saving anything to the hub.

So, here ends up being the question, and while I use other MIDI pedals none have this sort of 'daisy chain' through thing happening. How do my controllers 'see' the C4 when it's attached to the hub? So, for instance if I have my Hub on MIDI1 and my C4 set to MIDI4, and I have my ES-5 programmed...I assume I issue commands to MIDI4 and use CC's for everything (for now) and the Hub is mostly 'invisible' since I'm not using it for 'scenes'?

Right now I have two controllers, a DMC=3XL and the ES-5

The chain runs DMC-3XL->ES-5->(pedals (1-2-3)). The DMC 'ignores' the ES-5 as a MIDI device (Not programmed to see it on it's channel) and just passes signal through. Is the hub similarly 'invisible'?

When I create my patch on my ES-5 and trigger on the C4 (and whatever patch I want) + additional pedals, I assume I'll use the expression on the ES-5 rather than the Hub? Similarly, if I add something like a AS to the setup, I assume I can program that too like my other stuff? Pick the MIDI channel use CC or PC from my devices or will I have to create 'scenes'?

Currently yes, the hub would be like a ghost currently, but once hub integration with c4 happens, you can use PC messages to recall the presets on the c4 (plus any other pedals in the hub scene). The short of it is the more pedals you run through the hub, the less preset programming is involved since the hub is storing all that information, rather than going to each pedal individually to recall a full song preset.

Expression would be a yes.... I think..... i don’t think that expression currently works over hub to c4, but post update, then you can connect direct to hub for that.

Here’s the thing to remember, hub does not pass on PC messages to all connected pedals (through the TRRS jack, through the 5 pin din it will send midi messages through, you just have to set the midi out jack to thru, by default it’s set to out, so it won’t pass on midi data in that configuration).

So any pedal connect via TRRS to hub, can receive midi clock and CC messages, but not PC messages, since the hub is storing all that info. The work around has been to use CC103 (active) and CC104 (bypass) to recall individual presets form the ventris, nemesis and now C4 and spectrum. The other one series pedals have no way of recalling presets via midi, Jesse did not setup the small box pedals for that capability, however over time a lot of people have been asking for this capability, so internal presets were added to c4 and spectrum, with the idea that if users didn’t want the hub, they would have to use USB midi to access them, enter the micro ghost from disaster area. So you won’t be able to recall individual presets on the aftershock. Unless Jesse revisits the older pedals and adds this in, however there’s not a lot of space for code left on the other pedals, so this probably won’t happen, that’s more a question for Roger or Jesse. (Trust me, I’ve pushed for at least midi access to the 6 toggle switch presets, haven’t heard anything from them, but this was pre-employment, so I don’t know where the company stands on this idea currently).

TLDR: hub stores all the info for all TRRS connected pedals per scene, the big box pedals, C4 and spectrum can recall there internal presets via CC103/104, older small box pedals have no way of accessing internal presets via midi. Hub cannot directly access internal pedal presets via PC messages of any of the pedals.

 

[rsmith601]

Here’s my rig:
Soleman: 1 (soleman does not pass midi through, so if I had another controller connected to its in, it could only pass midi to the soleman anyways).

Hub: 1
DA smart switch: 2
Reflex: 3
POG2: 4 (modified for midi PC recall of 8 onboard presets, plus knobs mode)
Gemini: 5
LA lady: 6
Nemesis: 7
Ventris: 8
Vertigo: 9
PEQ: 10

If I didn’t use the hub for anything but program changes, and had no plans for making more complicated changes via CC, then the one series pedals would all be on the same channel as the hub, since would not be doing anything complex enough to need dedicated control of each pedal.

If I had only the nemesis or ventris (will say ventris only for this example), then I could get away with some CC messaging to the ventris, and programming the other pedals to CC values not used by ventris. But now you are sending a CC message to all the pedals, but only the one with that specific value is responding to it. Should work ok, but there’s a chance for something to go wrong with this (like accidentally mapping that CC to another pedal, now your controlling 2 pedals with the same CC).

Additionally, I could remap all CC values on all the pedals and use just the messages I need for each pedal, but again, you risk the above situation, and then your scratching your head, trying to figure out what the heck is going on with your board.

Finally, it’s best to give each pedal its own channel from the get go, as changing your mind down the road, means you are now having to go through each scene and manually reprogram the midi channel for each pedal connected to the hub and redacting the scene. So if you have all 128 scenes filled, that’s a lot of reprogramming, ultimately, I cleared the hub and started from scratch when I did this.

So in short, my suggestion is always to give each pedal its own channel the moment you connect it to the hub, before saving anything to the hub.



Currently yes, the hub would be like a ghost currently, but once hub integration with c4 happens, you can use PC messages to recall the presets on the c4 (plus any other pedals in the hub scene). The short of it is the more pedals you run through the hub, the less preset programming is involved since the hub is storing all that information, rather than going to each pedal individually to recall a full song preset.

Expression would be a yes.... I think..... i don’t think that expression currently works over hub to c4, but post update, then you can connect direct to hub for that.

Here’s the thing to remember, hub does not pass on PC messages to all connected pedals (through the TRRS jack, through the 5 pin din it will send midi messages through, you just have to set the midi out jack to thru, by default it’s set to out, so it won’t pass on midi data in that configuration).

So any pedal connect via TRRS to hub, can receive midi clock and CC messages, but not PC messages, since the hub is storing all that info. The work around has been to use CC103 (active) and CC104 (bypass) to recall individual presets form the ventris, nemesis and now C4 and spectrum. The other one series pedals have no way of recalling presets via midi, Jesse did not setup the small box pedals for that capability, however over time a lot of people have been asking for this capability, so internal presets were added to c4 and spectrum, with the idea that if users didn’t want the hub, they would have to use USB midi to access them, enter the micro ghost from disaster area. So you won’t be able to recall individual presets on the aftershock. Unless Jesse revisits the older pedals and adds this in, however there’s not a lot of space for code left on the other pedals, so this probably won’t happen, that’s more a question for Roger or Jesse. (Trust me, I’ve pushed for at least midi access to the 6 toggle switch presets, haven’t heard anything from them, but this was pre-employment, so I don’t know where the company stands on this idea currently).

TLDR: hub stores all the info for all TRRS connected pedals per scene, the big box pedals, C4 and spectrum can recall there internal presets via CC103/104, older small box pedals have no way of accessing internal presets via midi. Hub cannot directly access internal pedal presets via PC messages of any of the pedals.

This is a great summary of using SA pedals and the Hub in a MIDI system. You should save it!

Going back and changing the firmware on all the One Series pedals is lots of work for no return, and it risks that we break something and cause the users and us lots of headaches and confusion. The other key point is new One Series hardware used in the C4 and Spectrum can support lots of presets, so we started those designs with that in mind.

 

[Annette]

Expression would be a yes.... I think..... i don’t think that expression currently works over hub to c4, but post update, then you can connect direct to hub for that.

Thank you for explaining your setup and your insight into hub and one series interconnections! I'm not sure if your statement above is referring to expression via CC or via the TRS input on the hub. Just wanting to say that I'm actually using the TRS input on the hub and am able to control expression on the C4 etc.

 

[Robertron]

Thanks a lot for the write up @Gibs210! That was honestly much more insightful than the Hub manual was. I'm a little disappointed I won't be able to use the Hub to cycle presets but hopefully the C4 will be Hub compatible sooner than later.

 

[BurningSkies]

Here’s my rig:
Soleman: 1 (soleman does not pass midi through, so if I had another controller connected to its in, it could only pass midi to the soleman anyways).

Hub: 1
DA smart switch: 2
Reflex: 3
POG2: 4 (modified for midi PC recall of 8 onboard presets, plus knobs mode)
Gemini: 5
LA lady: 6
Nemesis: 7
Ventris: 8
Vertigo: 9
PEQ: 10

If I didn’t use the hub for anything but program changes, and had no plans for making more complicated changes via CC, then the one series pedals would all be on the same channel as the hub, since would not be doing anything complex enough to need dedicated control of each pedal.

If I had only the nemesis or ventris (will say ventris only for this example), then I could get away with some CC messaging to the ventris, and programming the other pedals to CC values not used by ventris. But now you are sending a CC message to all the pedals, but only the one with that specific value is responding to it. Should work ok, but there’s a chance for something to go wrong with this (like accidentally mapping that CC to another pedal, now your controlling 2 pedals with the same CC).

Additionally, I could remap all CC values on all the pedals and use just the messages I need for each pedal, but again, you risk the above situation, and then your scratching your head, trying to figure out what the heck is going on with your board.

Finally, it’s best to give each pedal its own channel from the get go, as changing your mind down the road, means you are now having to go through each scene and manually reprogram the midi channel for each pedal connected to the hub and redacting the scene. So if you have all 128 scenes filled, that’s a lot of reprogramming, ultimately, I cleared the hub and started from scratch when I did this.

So in short, my suggestion is always to give each pedal its own channel the moment you connect it to the hub, before saving anything to the hub.



Currently yes, the hub would be like a ghost currently, but once hub integration with c4 happens, you can use PC messages to recall the presets on the c4 (plus any other pedals in the hub scene). The short of it is the more pedals you run through the hub, the less preset programming is involved since the hub is storing all that information, rather than going to each pedal individually to recall a full song preset.

Expression would be a yes.... I think..... i don’t think that expression currently works over hub to c4, but post update, then you can connect direct to hub for that.

Here’s the thing to remember, hub does not pass on PC messages to all connected pedals (through the TRRS jack, through the 5 pin din it will send midi messages through, you just have to set the midi out jack to thru, by default it’s set to out, so it won’t pass on midi data in that configuration).

So any pedal connect via TRRS to hub, can receive midi clock and CC messages, but not PC messages, since the hub is storing all that info. The work around has been to use CC103 (active) and CC104 (bypass) to recall individual presets form the ventris, nemesis and now C4 and spectrum. The other one series pedals have no way of recalling presets via midi, Jesse did not setup the small box pedals for that capability, however over time a lot of people have been asking for this capability, so internal presets were added to c4 and spectrum, with the idea that if users didn’t want the hub, they would have to use USB midi to access them, enter the micro ghost from disaster area. So you won’t be able to recall individual presets on the aftershock. Unless Jesse revisits the older pedals and adds this in, however there’s not a lot of space for code left on the other pedals, so this probably won’t happen, that’s more a question for Roger or Jesse. (Trust me, I’ve pushed for at least midi access to the 6 toggle switch presets, haven’t heard anything from them, but this was pre-employment, so I don’t know where the company stands on this idea currently).

TLDR: hub stores all the info for all TRRS connected pedals per scene, the big box pedals, C4 and spectrum can recall there internal presets via CC103/104, older small box pedals have no way of accessing internal presets via midi. Hub cannot directly access internal pedal presets via PC messages of any of the pedals.

First off, I appreciate the detailed reply. Sometimes there's no substitute for actual words.

Ah, cool. I had understood previously that it worked in this way, but since then there's been some muddying of the waters and wanted to confirm. Alas I won't be able to get things too situated before heading back out on the road...but soon enough, and this gives me some things to think about. In other words, I chickened out in trying to update my DA pedal and program and trouble shoot the hub/C4 MIDI and program before heading down the east coast.

Easy enough for me to program CC's for active/bypass and I believe pick patches. I do that already across my three MIDI Pedals (Timeline, FI & Dr. Scientist Atmosphere) with my ES-5 and the patches are That's half the battle, and then I have a few things that will need expression, and it seems like both my ES-5 and my DA DMC-3XL can happily do MIDI expression. My DMC is used as a 'patch scroller' though it can do presets too...pick the pedal, turn it on and ratchet through patches on the fly. My ES-5 is used to build song patches with both MIDI and non-midi pedals in loops. That's why my DMC doesn't 'see' my ES...it doesn't need to trigger or control anything and I'd use the Hub similarly. If I can avoid programming patches, scenes then more patches I'm happy to do it, but it may just be easier to use the ES for as much as possible, and unless you're deep in the SA ecosystem, it doesn't seem to necessarily have a gain.

As of right now, if I can get the sounds out of it, the C4 could clear up to 3 or 4 pedals off my board, which is attractive (partially because it would allow an easier footprint but maybe some additional weirdness. But again, some of my setup is a little esoteric so getting the C4 to do some of it may be hit or miss.

Of course thing to know are that the DMC only will only control 4 MIDI devices, so depending, the Hub can act as an 'expander' or it may become an extra device that maxes out your DMC. The ES allows for more.

When it came to the Hub/MicrogHost situation, it was honestly a toss up. The DA is still forthcoming. The Hub is available. The Hub has functionality within the SA ecosystem, but I'm not neck deep in that. The DA is slightly smaller, while the Hub is taller by about half an inch. The pricing is commensurate unless I get the DA is hot pink sparkle.

This is a great summary of using SA pedals and the Hub in a MIDI system. You should save it!

Going back and changing the firmware on all the One Series pedals is lots of work for no return, and it risks that we break something and cause the users and us lots of headaches and confusion. The other key point is new One Series hardware used in the C4 and Spectrum can support lots of presets, so we started those designs with that in mind.

Retro-fitting systems and software always sucks. It never works like you want and it's usually way more effort for the lesser pay off. I work at a large university during the day that has nearly all its operations based on such patching and retrofitting. It's horrible.

So no pressure from me to have retro-MIDI control. I'll assume that your products will continue to evolve as you release.

 

[BurningSkies]

Now...for any of you kind TB sound designers. Of all the patches on my FI (99 of them) the only one that's hit my board for use is this one designed by the legendary @Proton Lenny:

I'd love to see a C4 version of the classic Vangelis Blade Runner Synth patch...but this is beyond my very basic understanding and abilities. My sub-standard understanding of the FI interface is multiplied by my slightly less-sub-standard understanding of the Neuro-Editor.

Is there anyone willing to take a crack at this for the greater good?

I will love you long time.

 

[Gibs210]

Thank you for explaining your setup and your insight into hub and one series interconnections! I'm not sure if your statement above is referring to expression via CC or via the TRS input on the hub. Just wanting to say that I'm actually using the TRS input on the hub and am able to control expression on the C4 etc.

I stand corrected then, the hub trs jack is more like plugging your expression pedal straight into the one series pedal you want to control, so for that reason I thought the hub wouldn’t pass that info on to the C4, I obviously haven’t tested this. The hub trs jack and hot hand jack can do midi CC for expression, @rsmith601 correct me if I’m wrong, cuz I’ve not messed with this, the trs jack, and the X and Y axis of the hot hand jack, can send midi CC messages downstream to any device connected to the midi out of the hub. I’m not sure how you designate which channel they send on or if it’s just to all midi channels. Before the reflex, this was one of the few ways to add midi expression to a pedal that might not have had that capability on its own before, due to lack of an expression jack. The jacks won’t send midi CC to the pedals connected to the hub, they send midi CC out like a midi controller to downstream devices....... I think, I guess I need to look into that again.

 

[GMC]

Wellwell, Thomann notified me that the C4 will be delayed for another week (17th September now). Just airing my grief.

Yep, similar issues here in the UK. One supplier is suggesting a "probable" mid September....two others are saying late October, which feels like half a life time away. I appreciate that it's low volume unit and there's a lot of initial demand...but please....please remember your European customers in your supply chain!