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Stoner/Doom Bassists Thread, Part 90: Maxed Out
- Thread starter Korladis
- Start date
1 dually with any amp isn't loud enough to compete with 4 100w halfstacks. The SB can do 2 ohms. The super bassman from what I've read is louder than an SVT. And marginally lighter with blendable channels.
My bad! Didn't mean to exclude you guys. How close can the clone get without the OG transformers?
Holy Balls those shows must be loud... How much of the Drums are on the PA? My ears are ringing just thinking about it. We haven't run full stacks since the 90's. Guitar player would like to some day. I could probably compete with him though with the HD1500 bridged into the Q10BX-D.
Tell you what. If I was ever to take a guitar spot in a band I would get a second vert 212 from Dave Homer. My single 212 with a 50 watt amp is stupid loud. Im not pushing a ton of lows, because thats the bass players job right?, but a second 212 and a 50-120 watt amp would turn that rig in to a juggernaut. Having it pointed at peoples faces makes it even more so. An 812 set up would just be stupid with these speakers.
Drums come through fine. In fact I can usually only hear drums and lead guitar. The only time I can clearly hear our second guitar is when lead cuts out entirely. His sound is faint when lead is taking a solo. It is honestly way too loud. I mean I love way too loud, don't mistake me there. If I had my way though, we would run full stacks for larger stages and half stacks for smaller stages and I would use two or one cabs respectively. I haven't had the pleasure of seeing Bongripper live but I'd imagine our volume is of a similar level guitar-wise. I am not currently running a 3kW rig like Ron is though.
The ironic thing is that I suggested using full stacks instead of dual half stacks for the larger stage we normally play. Lead player/ band leader shot down the idea because when his speakers are at ear level its too loud for him and he can't hear well enough to sing. It's stupid really.
Mainly, as much as I love my SVP/Prolite rig, I am more fond of the tube thing. The Prolites are loud indeed but I am not exaggerating when I say my 2000s is easily louder than 870w from the prolite. In fact the 2000s is louder with more low end through my K140 loaded 215s than the prolite into the dually. I am always trying to tweak my tone to find a point where I can just leave it. The struggle is lack of low end and be heard or have the booty moving bass but without ANY definition. The other issue is I am never able to run my full rig at rehearsals due to space limitations so I can't ever really dial it in the way I'd like to. This is the last time I will be playing in a two guitar metal band. Ever. It's just a pain in the ass.
This is my decided game plan. I'm going to call sweetwater and see if they can match or better the $1500 Blonde bassman on MF. Then I am going to call MF and see if they can beat that number or offer an additional discount. If either of those things happen, I am going to jump on the bassman. If they don't or I can't get either place low enough I will order a second dually. However it goes I'll be happy and I can always look for the other down the road but this is going to be my last big purchase for a long time. I gotta pay some debt off and focus on other priorities for a while, plus I'm looking for a new place to live by August.
Live with two duallies, my rig will go as follows. Smaller stages, dually vertical stack. I'm not sure if I'll run them at 1500w at 2 ohms or 870w a piece stereo. For larger stages I'm bringing both duallies and my 810 with the 810 laying in its side and the duallies stacked on top. Duallies running at 2 ohms and the 810 getting 870 from channel B.
With the SB, it would be either the 810 for small stages or 810/dually for big stages at 2 ohms.
I've never used a Dually, or any other of the modern custom cabs, but this doesn't seem right. From what others have said, the Dually should be burying your 2000s 2x15 rig. Unless they're really not as loud as everyone claims they are...
My 2-pro and SWR 610 can easily bury 2x100W halfstacks and I've never had to push it past 11:00 on the gain knob (master dimed, gain as volume setup). I know that this is a far cry from 4 full stacks but still, given enough cab, I can't imagine a situation where the SVT wouldn't have enough juice.
2000s into the dually may be louder. I haven't tried that in a while and its a bit of a pain to make that arrangement as everything is in a nice wall. I think more than the cabinets, the volume difference is due to class D versus tubes. I may be naive in that logic but my ears aren't lying to me and this is the second prolite 3.0 I have used.
When we rehearse, I can overpower 2 half stacks with the dually and my rack rig. Though at the last rehearsal I used my rack and an ampeg 610 and it was alarmingly quiet. I thought something was wrong with my amp, patch cables or possible output jack on my bass. I concluded that something is wrong with the 610. It sounded fine and good but I was diming the snot out of my rig and could barely keep up.
The dually sounds incredible. However I think there is a lot of augmentation to its capabilities that is thrown in the mix when describing volume over the internet. As we all know two people will have two different ideas of loud. For 95% of local band scenarios, I think the dually is stupid loud. I cannot really think of a situation I would be in aside from my current band that I would ever need more than one dually. I think in my situation there may be a lot of user error on my end as well or I just have unrealistic goals. I want to feel serious SPL and hear myself clearly on stage. I'm 6'3" tall and with a single dually, my ears are just too high up for the usual 6-10 feet of stage in front of the cab. It is insanely loud, but at the expense of low end. Maybe I am just being a *****, but I am hesitant to push it much more when I occasionally see the power amp clip delivering 870w into an 800w cab. I don't really hear any speaker fart or audible signs of stress but I use a pretty distorted signal. This is a fear I have had in the back of my head.
My Dually has been loud enough to compete with a drummer playing a big Ludwig kit and a guitarist playing a couple big vintage tube amps into full stacks. That being said, I had to make sure it wasn't directly behind the drummer and that it was slightly elevated. I put mine on top of a milk crate or an empty rack case. Even though they are very efficient when it comes to volume and even dispersion of frequencies, they're still small cabs and so you do have to consider placement with them in order to prevent the projection of sound from being blocked and the usual stuff about half stack sized rigs competing with full stacks (waist level vs ear level). When I had two I put one on each side of the drummer, with full stacks from the guitarist to the outside of those and it was impractically loud, even with just a Sunn Beta Bass powering one. YMMV, etc., I don't know everyone's rig and I'm a monster of tone obviously 
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With either a cab setup I'm not even close to pushing my power amp. Usually the master on the pre is a round 10 o clock. I go any more and the drummer can't hear the guitar. But if we have a full stack on guitar I could go up some. Now especially since we don't have two guitars.
ha ha well, I'm using "clone" loosely. For the output transformer, I used a Hammond 1650T which, from the specs, looks like it was designed to be a drop-in replacement for the Dynaco original used by Sunn. The power transformer is where I cheated. I used an Antek toroidal AN-4TK400, which if I interpreted the datasheet specs correctly, should have been plenty beefy. But it just sags too much under heavy load. I was hoping to get 150W clean sine wave before clipping, but it maxes out at 117W if I recall correctly. For $50, the antek toroid is still a great bargain, just better suited for a 100W amp I guess. Amp still sounds good though!! 
Part of it might come down to how the two amps are using their power. 1st, as I think I've mentioned, the 2000s isn't really a 120w amp when compared to most other MI amps. It's more around 200w if rated with similar standards as most bass amp manufacturers use. So combine the fact that it is louder than what we might generally think a 120w amp can normally be, and that the prolite might not really be pushing close to 870w constantly (often times manufacturers will tryto push that number by greatly reducing the frequency range and upping the distortion tolerance), and they end up being a lot closer in power than we might think. Additionally, I don't think the 2000s put outs much super low power, whereas the prolite probably does. What I'm getting at here is that the 2000s puts more of its power into what would be a useful frequency range, while the prolite expends more power pushing super lows. This could translate into the 2000s maybe seeming to be louder, since the prolite is using so much more of its available output to push that low end. At least, those would be my thoughts as to why the 2000s might seem louder.
Sadly, not quite there yet. 3 heads, but only 3 cabs. One cab is disassembled at the moment (my original clone cab) and one speaker needs some work. The 2 Sunn cabs run fine, one with Ds and the other with Ks. Then there's two 1x15s that have Es in them. I just don't have the space at the moment to stash any more cabs. If I wasn't working on paying of student loans and sold some gear, I'd be tempted to buy the full 2000s rig on reverb just to further my goal. Alternatively, I'm played around with the idea of getting two Acoustic 360 cabs, so as to have the rig of 1 full 2000s rig to push the mids and highs and crunch, and another 2000s run into the 360s for the low end. Not that I'd ever be able to properly UTILIZE that rig, but I think it'd be a cool idea.
Horde is such a loaded word. I prefer collect with extreme prejudice.
On topic of big tube amps, Im quite excited to get this VTA back to its former glory to see how BIG it is, it may not be < 300 watts but by the iron in this guy itll be a strong 200 watts.
My Dually has been loud enough to compete with a drummer playing a big Ludwig kit and a guitarist playing a couple big vintage tube amps into full stacks. That being said, I had to make sure it wasn't directly behind the drummer and that it was slightly elevated. I put mine on top of a milk crate or an empty rack case. Even though they are very efficient when it comes to volume and even dispersion of frequencies, they're still small cabs and so you do have to consider placement with them in order to prevent the projection of sound from being blocked and the usual stuff about half stack sized rigs competing with full stacks (waist level vs ear level). When I had two I put one on each side of the drummer, with full stacks from the guitarist to the outside of those and it was impractically loud, even with just a Sunn Beta Bass powering one. YMMV, etc., I don't know everyone's rig and I'm a monster of tone obviously
I trust you and after hearing many a Corey riff, consider you a sensei of tone. That said I'd have to hear two duallies against two full stacks being impractically loud to be a full believer. Maybe I have just trashed me ears to low frequencies but I've always heard it's the highs that are lost first.
Hording regarding 2000s amps should be a term of endearment.
I just fired up the rig and used the settings pictured below. I had a compressor and a UD with gain and volume at 9 o clock and tone at 1:30. It was loud enough to ring the bell in my doorbell(it wasn't anyone at my door), open the doors of my TV stand and shake my BDPG off of said stand. No power amp clipping. I pushed the pre gain to noon and got clipping. Still didn't really hear speaker distress, but if the flanger was on those LEDs would be glowing. I need to put that thing in a blend loop to save the speakers. Note: for the argument of boosting treble or mids for more cut, I am getting A LOT of high end right now due to the response from the faitals. Any more treble and it has a brittle top end and crazy feedback. As for the mids, I had them boosted more before but it was costing low end.
It was VERY loud, but that's without guitars present. It was louder than I'd ever consider in any other band arrangement, but I'm skeptical about its application in Valley. @D.M.N. It still didn't have the low end of the 2000s but may have been louder. I've been toying with much less gain than usual and I've gotten more volume and lows but I feel like less cut through. My dog left the room and came back as I was finishing up. She sat on the chair and looked at me with an expression that can only be personified as "What the **** dude".
I'm not disappointed at all with my choice to go the dually route despite my issues I have been describing. My guitarists create a unique set of hurdles for me as a bassist and I think extreme rig setup is absolutely necessary to compete. The Dually delivers but I think my issues are complicated by my fear of blowing speakers in such an expensive cab.
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There's too many variables to just equivocally say "It's loud enough" for any given situation. The bass/pickups/strings, the playing style, the pedals used, the settings and gain staging, the context both instrumentally and acoustically. Most of the people who post here are intelligent and observant and it's fair to say that what works in theory can go wrong a lot of ways in practice. I had a friend who was convinced Ampeg fridges weren't loud, because the only one he ever had access to for years had a blown out speaker and it threw off the output of the whole cab, he had no idea. I tried it out and figured it instantly, because I know what they're supposed to sound like in similar situations. Ditto with a Marshall 4x12 a guitar player in the doom metal band I was in had. I went to record it, one speaker was dead and one was barely putting out any sound. He had no point of reference, but I had a working Marshall 1960B at the time and knew his sounded wrong. So there's so many ways things can not work out that can't really be diagnosed without being there and understanding the full context. All that besides what works for someone doesn't work for everyone, application is a huge variable in and of itself when it comes to volume and tone.
I can say, just for reference, the guitar player I was playing with at that time is a gear fiend. I know because I'm mostly responsible for getting him into vintage tube amps and boutique fuzzes. He's also the type of guy who likes to turn everything all the way up and "too loud" isn't really in his vocabulary. Obviously a huge part of why we were playing music together. Still doesn't make your cab loud enough for you if it just isn't though.
Turn up the gain on that pre amp. Turn it up until you see that red light flicker, then you will have a lot more travel on your master. Ampeg pre amps need that pre gain up to get real output. That is part of why the SVT-3pro is considered underpowered, no one wanted to run the pre hot enough. Another thing to consider is the response of the cab and the pre amps used. The Dually doesnt have any massive spikes. The K140's do, so your ear hears that spike and goes, "FUQ this is loud" Put them on a meter measuring output at 80 hz, and it will be a different story. The EQ on the pre amp can help all that, but it is actually more difficult than it sounds to balance two different eq's, let alone the rest of the signal chain.
I'm free on Tuesday nights.
Honestly your exploration in to surf rock makes me wish I could start that band with you. I have done some recording dates recently, but have not played with a full band in a bit. Starting to wear on me, and I have had zero luck fielding anything. All the responses I get are for horrible tired classic rock cover bands. Not even earners, but basement rock stars.
