Sunn 4x15 cab

[agedhorse]

Cool, so to summarizes 5 pages of faff, no one should ever bother using old funky stuff, and anyone in the market for a new cabinet should just buy whatever the latest offerings from Mesa Boogie or Genzler are.

Maybe we should just close the forum and sticky a post that says that? Oh, and it should also have links to college level courses in acoustic physics and electrical engineering.

I mean, no other topic warrants discussion, right? (Although apparently they do warrant plenty of bickering...)

I think your summarizing is way off base.

There was some good information presented about WHY you haven’t seen any manufacturers introduce a design like this in the last maybe 25-30 years. Nobody said not to use an old funky cabinet either, just that they wouldn’t recommend it for several valid reasons.

Do you have a problem with members who want to learn based on real science rather than pretending that the science doesn’t exist?

 

[InkCow]

Cool, so to summarizes 5 pages of faff, no one should ever bother using old funky stuff, and anyone in the market for a new cabinet should just buy whatever the latest offerings from Mesa Boogie or Genzler are.

Maybe we should just close the forum and sticky a post that says that? Oh, and it should also have links to college level courses in acoustic physics and electrical engineering.

I mean, no other topic warrants discussion, right? (Although apparently they do warrant plenty of bickering...)

This feels excessively dismissive: the point is (and I think a summary of the discussion would be) that this particular design tried to solve two problems: a wider dispersal of sound waves and more speaker surface area than a flat baffle can provide.
The discussion wasn’t that “old is bad” (although there is some truth in “some ideas were bad, which is why we don’t do them anymore”). Most of the problems that this design was trying to solve would be addressed in a modern PA, but pretty much any pair of modern 1x15s (or any combination of regular speaker configurations) would beat the pants off this design, because we’ve learned a lot since then. Set aside your Mesa Boogies or Bergatinos: Peavey Headliners would provide better low end.

The Genzlers were brought up because their design more effectively satisfies the need to widen the horizon of the sound waves: it’s the midrange that matters for that, and those cabinets achieve that without sacrificing volume by using a convex array.

 

[daveman50]

This feels excessively dismissive: the point is (and I think a summary of the discussion would be) that this particular design tried to solve two problems: a wider dispersal of sound waves and more speaker surface area than a flat baffle can provide.

I doubt very seriously that this configuration was an attempt to "solve" anything. The old expression comes to mind, throw spaghetti at the wall and see if it sticks. Conrad Sundholm was a mad genius. Some of his designs were completely off the wall. Some worked, some didn't. This one didn't. Let's not make this complicated: the Sunn 415M is a subpar speaker cabinet. If you disagree, god bless, but there you go. Whether a "cross-firing" design works or not, this one doesn't, there's not enough volume in the cabinet to allow good bass response.

 

[DJ Bebop]

I think your summarizing is way off base.

There was some good information presented about WHY you haven’t seen any manufacturers introduce a design like this in the last maybe 25-30 years. Nobody said not to use an old funky cabinet either, just that they wouldn’t recommend it for several valid reasons.

Do you have a problem with members who want to learn based on real science rather than pretending that the science doesn’t exist?

50 years. I had one of the Sunn variant 50 years ago.

 

[Aussie Player]

As usual, the majority of critics have never played one and the only 2 responses with first hand experience are ignored.

The other thing out of place is ignoring that we are talking 50 years ago when every aspect of this industry was different and the proposed superior options didn't exist.

My last point is that I have live recordings of this cab and never a single time, has a younger musician not been amazed at the clarity and power of the sound. If you never played one in a live settings over several years..........by all means, ask how they sounded, but don't tell others how bad it was when you've never even seen one.

 

[DJ Bebop]

Cool, so to summarizes 5 pages of faff, no one should ever bother using old funky stuff, and anyone in the market for a new cabinet should just buy whatever the latest offerings from Mesa Boogie or Genzler are.

Maybe we should just close the forum and sticky a post that says that? Oh, and it should also have links to college level courses in acoustic physics and electrical engineering.

I mean, no other topic warrants discussion, right? (Although apparently they do warrant plenty of bickering...)

Maybe we old guys are just jealous that we can't take a cabinet like that around anymore. So we discourage anyone young to even try it so we won't look bad!

Or maybe many of use old guys have some experience with these cabinets and are suggesting they were not good then or now.
True, being asked what the hive mind thinks of them is a question that is asking for an honest answer. I guess it's our fault that we answered honesty, rather than lie.
I really doubt that if it's the only cab the OP has access to, despite what is said here, they will not get it.

Again we are old and some of use don't realize that there are genres of music that these old nasty sounding cabinets and some amps are just what the doctor ordered to perform their musical alchemy with.
Even if one does take all that in, it still doesn't negate the truth that these cabinet sounded like poo compared to other cabinets of the day.

Now if the OP came in and said, I'm in a Stoner Doom band what do you think?
I'd say, perfect! If he said, I'm in a Jazz trio, what do you think? Not so good.

See how that works? Everybody is happy!

 

[DJ Bebop]

As usual, the majority of critics have never played one and the only 2 responses with first hand experience are ignored.

The other thing out of place is ignoring that we are talking 50 years ago when every aspect of this industry was different and the proposed superior options didn't exist.

My last point is that I have live recordings of this cab and never a single time, has a younger musician not been amazed at the clarity and power of the sound. If you never played one in a live settings over several years..........by all means, ask how they sounded, but don't tell others how bad it was when you've never even seen one.

I had one and yes it did have clarity and a powerful sound but there were other cabinets of the day that just sounded better.

That is why we don't see them anymore. If they had been da shizzle, they'd be as prevalent as Ampeg 810 cabinets today.

The new Sunn company would be building them instead of the 215 they are resurrecting.

 

[ardgedee]

I had one and yes it did have clarity and a powerful sound but there were other cabinets of the day that just sounded better.

That is why we don't see them anymore. If they had been da shizzle, they'd be as prevalent as Ampeg 810 cabinets today.

The relative stability of the Sunn and Ampeg companies had something to do with it too. Though I think in this case the 810 benefited from the simpler-is-better principle: it was easier to build and wasn't quirky.

 

[DJ Bebop]

Though I think in this case the 810 benefited from the simpler-is-better principle: it was easier to build and wasn't quirky.

And actually sounded better than the Sunn V baffle cabinets. The 810 had better low end response, that 810s are not known for (the low end roll off that happens naturally by means of it's design)

 

[Guitalia]

Brought to you by the US education system where regurgitating the correct answers is more important than learning how to think.

A substantial proportion of the answers reflecting deep knowledge of this topic and many others on this forum come from people educated in the U.S.

 

[Aussie Player]

I had one and yes it did have clarity and a powerful sound but there were other cabinets of the day that just sounded better.

That is why we don't see them anymore. If they had been da shizzle, they'd be as prevalent as Ampeg 810 cabinets today.

The new Sunn company would be building them instead of the 215 they are resurrecting.

Thats where life's experience differs. I never saw an Ampeg amp in Australia ever, until some touring bands brought them in during the 80's, so many options claimed, were not necessarily true or available for everyone.
The internet is global and many responders, particularly Americans, assume what they know from availability is universal when it never was. We still see daily threads recommending American options to global contributors who don't have the same access. Eg: I read where Mesa is being released in Europe. Everything we know in the US is not available everywhere globally, never was, negating much of the options assumed, particularly 50 years ago.

It was a good cab back then (400w RMS cabs were rare) and I liked its sound as I am adverse to modern trebly bass. That would be an acceptable reason not to "prefer" one,

 

[DJ Bebop]

Thats where life's experience differs. I never saw an Ampeg amp in Australia ever, until some touring bands brought them in during the 80's, so many options claimed, were not necessarily true or available for everyone.
The internet is global and many responders, particularly Americans, assume what they know from availability is universal when it never was. We still see daily threads recommending American options to global contributors who don't have the same access. Eg: I read where Mesa is being released in Europe. Everything we know in the US is not available everywhere globally, never was, negating much of the options assumed, particularly 50 years ago.

It was a good cab back then (400w RMS cabs were rare) and I liked its sound as I am adverse to modern trebly bass. That would be an acceptable reason not to "prefer" one,

So what brands are prevalent on the West Island past or present?

 

[The_Conqueror]

Could you give us the 30 second elevator explanation of the physics behind this design?
I, for one, am very interested. Thanks.

As usual, the majority of critics have never played one and the only 2 responses with first hand experience are ignored.

The other thing out of place is ignoring that we are talking 50 years ago when every aspect of this industry was different and the proposed superior options didn't exist.

My last point is that I have live recordings of this cab and never a single time, has a younger musician not been amazed at the clarity and power of the sound. If you never played one in a live settings over several years..........by all means, ask how they sounded, but don't tell others how bad it was when you've never even seen one.

If this is the cab referred to, I have about 15 years first hand experience with it.
View attachment 5307571 View attachment 5307572
I purchased this new mid 70's with a Sunn Model T 150W head as a package.
For the remainder of the 70's, I used this Sunn amp for smaller pubs and paired with with a Marshall double stack for larger clubs.

In the early 80's, I used this cab with a Marshall model 2001 375W RMS Bass head as the cab was 400W at 4Ohms and reverted to the Sunn head after Marshall bought the 2001 back and discontinued the line.

In the 70's I used Gibsons with Picato black nylons exclusively. In the 80's I used Alembics exclusively.

I loved the sound of it and only down sized when my tours incorproated flights so the gear was all scaled back for size and weight. Would likely still be playing it today if I never sold it. It was a great amp for note definition when playing in the busy style of the day. Never boomy or loosing clarity with notes played up hight or low on the E string, including low power chords.

I take this as you recommending the cab?
My dream backline is a 4×15 cab with a Trace Elliot or Ashdown head with the goal bass tone being a Metallica/Iron Maiden/Motörhead mix

 

[Redbrangus]

For me, the obvious problem with the crossfire concept is the large amount of phase cancellation that will occur at upper frequencies when it's used with a full-range signal -- not a problem when it's bandpass limited to frequencies below that of a quarter-wavelength of the driver diameter. In this case, about 800Hz, so above that is where there's going to be significant destructive interference. I'm just guessing, but I suspect it would measure out as a comb-filter if analyzed with sufficient resolution.

Sunn threw a lot of stuff at the wall back in that day; in retrospect, much of it exhibits a lack of the sort of understanding and knowledge we have now. The same can be said of almost every other manufacturer, but in some cases, some of them -- Sunn included -- still managed to stumble onto workable, if not highly engineered solutions.

 

[DJ Bebop]

I take this as you recommending the cab?
My dream backline is a 4×15 cab with a Trace Elliot or Ashdown head with the goal bass tone being a Metallica/Iron Maiden/Motörhead mix

If that is your tone goals, I would get it.
I had the 6x12 variant and had played through the 4x15. They weren't my tone goals.

If it's affordable and you get a chance to play through it and like it. I see no reason to not get it.

 

[The_Conqueror]

If that is your tone goals, I would get it.
I had the 6x12 variant and had played through the 4x15. They weren't my tone goals.

If it's affordable and you get a chance to play through it and like it. I see no reason to not get it.

Nice to hear!
My thought process went as follows:
Lemmy used 4×12s, Cliff Burton used Sunn gear in the early days, Steve Harris has used a Trace Elliot GP12X almost his whole career and so did Jason Newstead during the Black Album-sessions.
A fair assumption would be that a mix of that gear (with my pedalbord that already gets me in the ballpark of what I'm after) would be perfect

 

[ctmullins]

Nice to hear!
My thought process went as follows:
Lemmy used 4×12s, Cliff Burton used Sunn gear in the early days, Steve Harris has used a Trace Elliot GP12X almost his whole career and so did Jason Newstead during the Black Album-sessions.
A fair assumption would be that a mix of that gear (with my pedalbord that already gets me in the ballpark of what I'm after) would be perfect

Yes.

But consider that Jason and Cliff might have chosen to use DarkGlass and Genzler if they had been available back then.

Modern stuff is capable of all of the old classic tones, and then some.

 

[Marko 1]

So I was looking at 4x12s at Reverb a when I found this old one from the 70's with a kind-of wedge or V shaped speaker baffle.

Just curious... is there a financial element going on here?

I'm guessing these cabs are going cheap.

 

[DJ Bebop]

Nice to hear!
My thought process went as follows:
Lemmy used 4×12s, Cliff Burton used Sunn gear in the early days, Steve Harris has used a Trace Elliot GP12X almost his whole career and so did Jason Newstead during the Black Album-sessions.
A fair assumption would be that a mix of that gear (with my pedalbord that already gets me in the ballpark of what I'm after) would be perfect

It's just no one you named ever to my knowledge, used that particular cabinet to create their sound. But it will be your sound.

I hope this works for you!

 

[agedhorse]

Thats where life's experience differs. I never saw an Ampeg amp in Australia ever, until some touring bands brought them in during the 80's, so many options claimed, were not necessarily true or available for everyone.
The internet is global and many responders, particularly Americans, assume what they know from availability is universal when it never was. We still see daily threads recommending American options to global contributors who don't have the same access. Eg: I read where Mesa is being released in Europe. Everything we know in the US is not available everywhere globally, never was, negating much of the options assumed, particularly 50 years ago.

It was a good cab back then (400w RMS cabs were rare) and I liked its sound as I am adverse to modern trebly bass. That would be an acceptable reason not to "prefer" one,

Note that Mesa has been available in Europe for 30+ years and Australia for almost as long. We paused shipments outside of North America for 3 years while dealing with COVID supply chain issues, a necessity vendor change for all transformers, and recertification to the new global safety standards.