The Combo Club

[SoulReflection]

I see your point and it's a good one. We'd both have to agree that there are certainly more variables that we haven't discussed, like efficiency/SPL level. If I have a 15" speaker and a 10" speaker which are identical in their specs and am running through the same amount of wattage, I would expect the larger driver to be "louder" maybe not in pure volume, but in fullness due to the larger air movement. The sonic differences between the different sizes are why there are so many choices out there, including Phil Jones' array of multi-driver cabinets only 5" in diameter. They'll knock ya flat! In my experience, two 15s with a few hundred watts pushing them is all I'd ever need to play about anywhere but Shea Stadium.

I found that 60 tube watts was ample for two 15's but I didn't play Shea....

 

[Liko]

Two 1x15s and 100 "vintage Peavey watts" is a whole lot of loud

And a whole lot of "oof" when loading in and out. 100W and 2 15" speakers with the Peavey badge are not gonna be 17kg. You might get lucky and happen across one of Peavey USA's lighter setups at about 60kg for two cabs.

 

[SoulReflection]

And a whole lot of "oof" when loading in and out. 100W and 2 15" speakers with the Peavey badge are not gonna be 17kg. You might get lucky and happen across one of Peavey USA's lighter setups at about 60kg for two cabs.

I had a Peavey 300 Combo with a 15" cab and it was a true heavy weight. But it did not have the tone of my 60 watt tube amp with 2-D140F's.

There was something special about that combination back then.

The Combo 200 with 15" extension cab comes close enough for me to not want to go back to tube amps...for now .

 

[iagtrplyr]

This is probably a dumb question. But you mentioned moving air @iagtrplyr . You seem well informed on details like this. Ok dumb question. Which moves more air. Two 10” speakers or one 15” speaker?

Michael, at the CC there are no dumb questions, just leaders! I saved your reply for last, but the great point WBB made and G'dog's chart is well worth reading along with my two cents. There are many factors when deciding what is the best speaker for you, especially which one(s) you think sounds best to your ears. That's why I try and have at least one example of each! But that doesn't guarantee how they'll sound until you play through it or them.

To answer your question, the surface area, with everything else being equal, gives you an idea of how much air will get moved across the room to your listener's ears. If there was no such thing as multiple drivers and we all had to play through one speaker, the surface area of a 15" speaker is 177 sq in. A 12" speaker's area is 113 sq in, and a 10" speaker's is 79 sq in. Again, they're all the same specs-wise, otherwise. At full amp volume, you'll hear all the speakers work, but continue moving back in the hall and the larger speaker will send those big sound waves further back because that speaker needs more room to deliver a 40 Hz wave. The ten, not as much. You won't hear it very well at the back of the venue, especially if there's a guitar, drums, and accordion all jamming away!

The proof is the old acoustic bass cabinet models which used an 18" speaker. They, from what I've read (never used myself) didn't sound that great or weren't that loud up close, but go back into the crowd and they would be getting slammed like a Mack truck! Size counts here too.

In my music room, which is crowded if there are three of us in it, a smaller driver is great. 8" or 10" speakers sound terrific because their waves hit the walls quickly and reflect. Now if they're not very efficient they still won't be overly loud, but if you can figuratively blow in the back of the speaker and it plays, it'll be louder up to its limits. My 15" speaker, on the other hand, doesn't sound as good as it would in a larger room. Its sound waves get clipped short because they can't flow out without hitting these near walls.

That's why I'm saying it'll all depend on what your mission is. To answer your question, look at G'dog's chart and add the surface area of two tens and compare it to a single fifteen (168 sq in vs. 177 sq in). The 15 still puts out more air, but may not sound as good, maybe boomier, etc. On the other hand, it still may sound better and be louder than the tens! Hartke, in fact, sells a 4 X 8 combo amp and there is over 200 sq in of surface. I'd love to hear it.

Okay, I've probably worn you and everyone else out. hope it answered your question. Bottom line, if I want big bass I go with the larger drivers. If I want great mids and volume, I go with multiple tens. 12s are an interesting compromise that a lot of us are liking, Ampeg RB-112, for example. Then there's Phil Jones and all his voodoo magic. Just ask Morrighan about those cabs!

FL

 

[iagtrplyr]

Last night there were "Severe weather warnings" for our area: high winds, hard rain, excessive lightning. I have one less case than I do basses. After a few moments of deliberation, the Acinonyx went into it's case, and my short scale StingRay stayed out on the rack. This weekend, I'm planning to drive down to Sweetwater and buy a new case to protect the Ray.

When the threat comes, it helps to clarify what is important.

Yes, we secured the humans first, then the cats, and then the basses. When the severe weather hit...eh. It was not nearly what was predicted (thankfully!) and didn't so much as knock a branch off any of the trees I could see.
May all be well!

Good for you, RR! We lost some smaller branches and a lot of leaves, but the important stuff, as you mentioned, was safe. Smart idea heading to Sweetwater. We may have another round tonight, but who knows?

 

[iagtrplyr]

I found that 60 tube watts was ample for two 15's but I didn't play Shea....

And I'm forever sad that I didn't get to hear you play there!

 

[GwenOnBass]

Michael, at the CC there are no dumb questions, just leaders! I saved your reply for last, but the great point WBB made and G'dog's chart is well worth reading along with my two cents. There are many factors when deciding what is the best speaker for you, especially which one(s) you think sounds best to your ears. That's why I try and have at least one example of each! But that doesn't guarantee how they'll sound until you play through it or them.

To answer your question, the surface area, with everything else being equal, gives you an idea of how much air will get moved across the room to your listener's ears. If there was no such thing as multiple drivers and we all had to play through one speaker, the surface area of a 15" speaker is 177 sq in. A 12" speaker's area is 113 sq in, and a 10" speaker's is 79 sq in. Again, they're all the same specs-wise, otherwise. At full amp volume, you'll hear all the speakers work, but continue moving back in the hall and the larger speaker will send those big sound waves further back because that speaker needs more room to deliver a 40 Hz wave. The ten, not as much. You won't hear it very well at the back of the venue, especially if there's a guitar, drums, and accordion all jamming away!

The proof is the old acoustic bass cabinet models which used an 18" speaker. They, from what I've read (never used myself) didn't sound that great or weren't that loud up close, but go back into the crowd and they would be getting slammed like a Mack truck! Size counts here too.

In my music room, which is crowded if there are three of us in it, a smaller driver is great. 8" or 10" speakers sound terrific because their waves hit the walls quickly and reflect. Now if they're not very efficient they still won't be overly loud, but if you can figuratively blow in the back of the speaker and it plays, it'll be louder up to its limits. My 15" speaker, on the other hand, doesn't sound as good as it would in a larger room. Its sound waves get clipped short because they can't flow out without hitting these near walls.

That's why I'm saying it'll all depend on what your mission is. To answer your question, look at G'dog's chart and add the surface area of two tens and compare it to a single fifteen (168 sq in vs. 177 sq in). The 15 still puts out more air, but may not sound as good, maybe boomier, etc. On the other hand, it still may sound better and be louder than the tens! Hartke, in fact, sells a 4 X 8 combo amp and there is over 200 sq in of surface. I'd love to hear it.

Okay, I've probably worn you and everyone else out. hope it answered your question. Bottom line, if I want big bass I go with the larger drivers. If I want great mids and volume, I go with multiple tens. 12s are an interesting compromise that a lot of us are liking, Ampeg RB-112, for example. Then there's Phil Jones and all his voodoo magic. Just ask Morrighan about those cabs!

FL

My most recent math class was in 1972, and it was year of plane geometry. I passed. Forget about engineering So how does one complete university with no math?
:: evil grin ::
Jaws pop open and just hang there when I tell that tale.

So expect no amplification engineering insights from me.

 

[SoulReflection]

Michael, at the CC there are no dumb questions, just leaders! I saved your reply for last, but the great point WBB made and G'dog's chart is well worth reading along with my two cents. There are many factors when deciding what is the best speaker for you, especially which one(s) you think sounds best to your ears. That's why I try and have at least one example of each! But that doesn't guarantee how they'll sound until you play through it or them.

To answer your question, the surface area, with everything else being equal, gives you an idea of how much air will get moved across the room to your listener's ears. If there was no such thing as multiple drivers and we all had to play through one speaker, the surface area of a 15" speaker is 177 sq in. A 12" speaker's area is 113 sq in, and a 10" speaker's is 79 sq in. Again, they're all the same specs-wise, otherwise. At full amp volume, you'll hear all the speakers work, but continue moving back in the hall and the larger speaker will send those big sound waves further back because that speaker needs more room to deliver a 40 Hz wave. The ten, not as much. You won't hear it very well at the back of the venue, especially if there's a guitar, drums, and accordion all jamming away!

The proof is the old acoustic bass cabinet models which used an 18" speaker. They, from what I've read (never used myself) didn't sound that great or weren't that loud up close, but go back into the crowd and they would be getting slammed like a Mack truck! Size counts here too.

In my music room, which is crowded if there are three of us in it, a smaller driver is great. 8" or 10" speakers sound terrific because their waves hit the walls quickly and reflect. Now if they're not very efficient they still won't be overly loud, but if you can figuratively blow in the back of the speaker and it plays, it'll be louder up to its limits. My 15" speaker, on the other hand, doesn't sound as good as it would in a larger room. Its sound waves get clipped short because they can't flow out without hitting these near walls.

That's why I'm saying it'll all depend on what your mission is. To answer your question, look at G'dog's chart and add the surface area of two tens and compare it to a single fifteen (168 sq in vs. 177 sq in). The 15 still puts out more air, but may not sound as good, maybe boomier, etc. On the other hand, it still may sound better and be louder than the tens! Hartke, in fact, sells a 4 X 8 combo amp and there is over 200 sq in of surface. I'd love to hear it.

Okay, I've probably worn you and everyone else out. hope it answered your question. Bottom line, if I want big bass I go with the larger drivers. If I want great mids and volume, I go with multiple tens. 12s are an interesting compromise that a lot of us are liking, Ampeg RB-112, for example. Then there's Phil Jones and all his voodoo magic. Just ask Morrighan about those cabs!

FL

Well, my thought is that "boomier" is more of adjusting for room size and acoustics. Rather that having 10's, 12's or 15's for different room sizes, I would go for 15's and an HPF but, that is just me and I will go back into my corner now!

 

[RodRy]

My most recent math class was in 1972, and it was year of plane geometry. I passed. Forget about engineering So how does one complete university with no math?
:: evil grin ::
Jaws pop open and just hang there when I tell that tale.

So expect no amplification engineering insights from me.

So want to hear the tale.

 

[Michael Favata]

Michael, at the CC there are no dumb questions, just leaders! I saved your reply for last, but the great point WBB made and G'dog's chart is well worth reading along with my two cents. There are many factors when deciding what is the best speaker for you, especially which one(s) you think sounds best to your ears. That's why I try and have at least one example of each! But that doesn't guarantee how they'll sound until you play through it or them.

To answer your question, the surface area, with everything else being equal, gives you an idea of how much air will get moved across the room to your listener's ears. If there was no such thing as multiple drivers and we all had to play through one speaker, the surface area of a 15" speaker is 177 sq in. A 12" speaker's area is 113 sq in, and a 10" speaker's is 79 sq in. Again, they're all the same specs-wise, otherwise. At full amp volume, you'll hear all the speakers work, but continue moving back in the hall and the larger speaker will send those big sound waves further back because that speaker needs more room to deliver a 40 Hz wave. The ten, not as much. You won't hear it very well at the back of the venue, especially if there's a guitar, drums, and accordion all jamming away!

The proof is the old acoustic bass cabinet models which used an 18" speaker. They, from what I've read (never used myself) didn't sound that great or weren't that loud up close, but go back into the crowd and they would be getting slammed like a Mack truck! Size counts here too.

In my music room, which is crowded if there are three of us in it, a smaller driver is great. 8" or 10" speakers sound terrific because their waves hit the walls quickly and reflect. Now if they're not very efficient they still won't be overly loud, but if you can figuratively blow in the back of the speaker and it plays, it'll be louder up to its limits. My 15" speaker, on the other hand, doesn't sound as good as it would in a larger room. Its sound waves get clipped short because they can't flow out without hitting these near walls.

That's why I'm saying it'll all depend on what your mission is. To answer your question, look at G'dog's chart and add the surface area of two tens and compare it to a single fifteen (168 sq in vs. 177 sq in). The 15 still puts out more air, but may not sound as good, maybe boomier, etc. On the other hand, it still may sound better and be louder than the tens! Hartke, in fact, sells a 4 X 8 combo amp and there is over 200 sq in of surface. I'd love to hear it.

Okay, I've probably worn you and everyone else out. hope it answered your question. Bottom line, if I want big bass I go with the larger drivers. If I want great mids and volume, I go with multiple tens. 12s are an interesting compromise that a lot of us are liking, Ampeg RB-112, for example. Then there's Phil Jones and all his voodoo magic. Just ask Morrighan about those cabs!

FL

Thank you so much for this thoughtful response @iagtrplyr . It was very helpful and makes so much sense. Let me ask you guys what you would do with my dilemma.

I am not as experienced as most of you guys on the bass. Took my 1st acoustic guitar lesson in 1973 (12 years old) got my 1st bass a year later in 1974 (a Ventura P Bass copy) then started playing drums a year after that. In the last 48 years I have purchased 60 guitars and basses and played them the whole time. Just was not dedicated/obsessed with them (other than buying a whole lot of them lol) In bands I played drums. In my home studios (I’ve had one since 1984) I played guitars and basses to lay tracks down. But in bands I was on the drums.

3 years ago I had a devastating right arm injury, a distal bicep rupture, (look it up) while hanging from a gutter by one arm, ruining my wrist and shoulder in the process. No longer being able to play the drums after 45 years I threw myself in to the bass because of those injuries.

I have been playing bass 1-2 hours a day every day for 3 years now. I’m kicking myself for not playing the bass the last 50 years! It’s where I belonged all along.

So I have not gigged with a band as a bassist yet. It’s kinda cool to still have a cherry to pop at my age and I’m looking forward to it. I’m learning a lot from you pros and amateurs alike in this forum. I was in a band that was doing great but was a COVID victim.

I have an Ampeg 15” cab with that beautiful diamond tolex cover. I have a Markbass CMD 102p that is 300/500 and 2x10. I love the sound of 15s. I love big fat round sounds. That’s why I love my short scale American performer, it sounds big and round and fat and huge.

My dilemma. I have no issues with my Markbass but at 45 lbs and a larger awkward cab than some combos I’m moving on from it. Every pound counts. So I’ve been debating pulling the trigger on the Rocket Bass 115. At 34 lbs I would have my 15” that I love with 100 watts that should work for most gigs or rehearsal situations that I would do and if I had a bigger gig I could combine it with my 15” cab for two 15” cabs at 200 watts. (Apologies to G-Dog for not getting the Rumble :>) Im not sure the 200 watts through two 15s would be enough for an outdoor gig but that’s what a line out and PA are for in a big situation like that right?

Or do I go with the Rocket Bass 210 combo with 300/500 watt setup? At 39 lbs still 6 lbs lighter than the Markbass combo and a less awkward cab. More watts than I’ll ever need when combined with the 15” cab.

The goal being to have a versatile enough setup to do any size gig while saving this old body of mine from more punishment than is absolutely necessary. Btw I purchased and returned a GK 12” combo finding that it disappeared at 20’ so that’s out. It’s with a 15” combo or two 12s combo. Any thoughts folks? (Sorry for the long post)

 

[GwenOnBass]

Thank you so much for this thoughtful response @iagtrplyr . It was very helpful and makes so much sense. Let me ask you guys what you would do with my dilemma.

I am not as experienced as most of you guys on the bass. Took my 1st acoustic guitar lesson in 1973 (12 years old) got my 1st bass a year later in 1974 (a Ventura P Bass copy) then started playing drums a year after that. In the last 48 years I have purchased 60 guitars and basses and played them the whole time. Just was not dedicated/obsessed with them (other than buying a whole lot of them lol) In bands I played drums. In my home studios (I’ve had one since 1984) I played guitars and basses to lay tracks down. But in bands I was on the drums.

3 years ago I had a devastating right arm injury, a distal bicep rupture, (look it up) while hanging from a gutter by one arm, ruining my wrist and shoulder in the process. No longer being able to play the drums after 45 years I threw myself in to the bass because of those injuries.

I have been playing bass 1-2 hours a day every day for 3 years now. I’m kicking myself for not playing the bass the last 50 years! It’s where I belonged all along.

So I have not gigged with a band as a bassist yet. It’s kinda cool to still have a cherry to pop at my age and I’m looking forward to it. I’m learning a lot from you pros and amateurs alike in this forum. I was in a band that was doing great but was a COVID victim.

I have an Ampeg 15” cab with that beautiful diamond tolex cover. I have a Markbass CMD 102p that is 300/500 and 2x10. I love the sound of 15s. I love big fat round sounds. That’s why I love my short scale American performer, it sounds big and round and fat and huge.

My dilemma. I have no issues with my Markbass but at 45 lbs and a larger awkward cab than some combos I’m moving on from it. Every pound counts. So I’ve been debating pulling the trigger on the Rocket Bass 115. At 34 lbs I would have my 15” that I love with 100 watts that should work for most gigs or rehearsal situations that I would do and if I had a bigger gig I could combine it with my 15” cab for two 15” cabs at 200 watts. (Apologies to G-Dog for not getting the Rumble :>) Im not sure the 200 watts through two 15s would be enough for an outdoor gig but that’s what a line out and PA are for in a big situation like that right?

Or do I go with the Rocket Bass 210 combo with 300/500 watt setup? At 39 lbs still 6 lbs lighter than the Markbass combo and a less awkward cab. More watts than I’ll ever need when combined with the 15” cab.

The goal being to have a versatile enough setup to do any size gig while saving this old body of mine from more punishment than is absolutely necessary. Btw I purchased and returned a GK 12” combo finding that it disappeared at 20’ so that’s out. It’s with a 15” combo or two 12s combo. Any thoughts folks? (Sorry for the long post)

Trace Elliot Elf combos are very light (17 pounds for the 1x8), and by all accounts, are stoopid loud for the size. Pair with a TE 1x10 or 2x8 for a lightweight modular rig ... The Elf packs the signature Trace tone. Less expensive than further injury
(disclaimer, I love my Elf head)

 

[Michael Favata]

Trace Elliot Elf combos are very light (17 pounds for the 1x8), and by all accounts, are stoopid loud for the size. Pair with a TE 1x10 or 2x8 for a lightweight modular rig ... The Elf packs the signature Trace tone. Less expensive than further injury
(disclaimer, I love my Elf head)

Thanks @Morrighan . I considered the GK Fusion 112 NEO cabs at 800 watts and 33 lbs (and 1200 bucks) But that experience with their MB112 12” regular 200 watt combo disappearing at 20 feet convinced me I was looking for at least a 15” or two 10” combo cab. The Phil Jones combos seem to good to be true.

 

[GwenOnBass]

Thanks @Morrighan . I considered the GK Fusion 112 NEO cabs at 800 watts and 33 lbs (and 1200 bucks) But that experience with their MB112 12” regular 200 watt combo disappearing at 20 feet convinced me I was looking for at least a 15” or two 10” combo cab. The Phil Jones combos seem to good to be true.

There's a great deal more than cone area and watts to fill a room. It's engineering ... and that's not my bailiwick. The Phil Jones Double Four is amazing, but it's not a decibel monster. Nor is it intended to be. The PJB BG-400 (Suitcase Compact) that I use has roughly the same speaker area as a 1x10. And yet ... it'll really do the job.

But I'm not asking it to do the job of a SVT and 810E burying the Marshall half stack heavy distortion guys. The combo is also weird in that the entire range of the gain and volume pots is useful. It doesn't get really loud at noon and then not much more beyond. It is perfectly happy dimed. It's made to do that. Consider many doublers pick Phil Jones and that'll tell you what's going on. It's about clarity. Clarity > raw spl in many cases, IMO.

My Elf drives two PJB Cab 27s. Seven inch drivers. It'll do front line duty for me. I'm also 65, and not doing volume wars. I'm in Real Book Land. And blues &c &c. These small speakers are the real deal. Have a look in the Trace Elliot thread.
Trace Elliot ELF
TB member video here ->

​

Two Trace 2x8 cabs and an Elf is the real deal. Two Trace 1x10 cabs and and Elf is the real deal too. There are players who say that's not enough. There are players who say the PJB BG-400 and C4 extension isn't enough. There are also players who'll tell you in no uncertain terms a PJB C8 and an 800 watt amp of your choice is intoxicating. The C8 has wheels and a telescoping handle <shrug> For me, two C4 cabs and amp of choice is easier to lug around.

I like 15 inch drivers. May even own another. But not today, nor soon. Had the Elf combo been available when I bought my Elf, well, I'd have an Elf combo and an extension. More likely I'd have gone with the Elf 1x8 combo and Trace 2x8.

 

[GwenOnBass]

Thanks @Morrighan ... disappearing at 20 feet convinced me I was looking for at least a 15” or two 10” combo cab.

afterthought

HPF. I don't leave home without it. It'll cure a lot of ills that have nothing to do with an amp's design, and everything to do with the room.

 

[LoveJackBruce]

Thanks @Morrighan . I considered the GK Fusion 112 NEO cabs at 800 watts and 33 lbs (and 1200 bucks) But that experience with their MB112 12” regular 200 watt combo disappearing at 20 feet convinced me I was looking for at least a 15” or two 10” combo cab. The Phil Jones combos seem to good to be true.

Orange OBC-112 400-watt 1x12" Bass Cabinet - Black. $529/ea

These cabs are only 26 pounds each. 400 watts RMS/ea. So quite easy to carry and 2 can handle a Rumble 800 head. If I was playing out I'd check these out.

Now I know you prefer the 15, and I love my R200 15 inch speaker. Fat and round. However, that extra 8 pounds for the R200 is quite a bit more to handle these days.

 

[G-Dog]

... ... So I have not gigged with a band as a bassist yet. ... ... I’m learning a lot from you pros and amateurs alike in this forum. I was in a band that was doing great but was a COVID victim. I have an Ampeg 15” cab with that beautiful diamond tolex cover. I have a Markbass CMD 102p that is 300/500 and 2x10. I love the sound of 15s. I love big fat round sounds ... ...

Glad TB is helping you, Michael! That's what we're here for. Many of us have had our bass careers knocked on the head by that thang goin' 'round.​

... ... My dilemma. I have no issues with my Markbass but at 45 lbs and a larger awkward cab than some combos I’m moving on from it. Every pound counts. So I’ve been debating pulling the trigger on the Rocket Bass 115. At 34 lbs I would have my 15” that I love with 100 watts that should work for most gigs or rehearsal situations that I would do and if I had a bigger gig I could combine it with my 15” cab for two 15” cabs at 200 watts. (Apologies to G-Dog for not getting the Rumble :>) Im not sure the 200 watts through two 15s would be enough for an outdoor gig but that’s what a line out and PA are for in a big situation like that right? ... ...

No apologies necessary, as far as I'm concerned! We all just gotta do what we gotta do. And that's ... OK. Sounds to me like you've got your head on straight and a reasonable outlook. No need to take any guff, or feel guilty, about it your bass journey, either!​

.

 

[LoveJackBruce]

afterthought

HPF. I don't leave home without it. It'll cure a lot of ills that have nothing to do with an amp's design, and everything to do with the room.

I guess I need one of these.

 

[GwenOnBass]

I guess I need one of these.
View attachment 4366428View attachment 4366428

My LPF is the the cab sim on the now-retired VT Bass Deluxe. Plus the Broughton HPF.



While I can play the reggie music, and would benefit from a discreet LPF, I find the 5 kHz cutoff on the VT Bass is enough for my needs. What I seriously think about (not kidding) is a Broughton always-on HPF mounted on the underside of my pedalboard. Because some FOH guy somewhere wants a DI signal without the HPF. So he can thump the room with mud. Because. So turn my HPF topside off, leave the other one on. And absolutely no harm with a 24 db HPF with both on.

 

[Michael Favata]

Glad TB is helping you, Michael! That's what we're here for. Many of us have had our bass careers knocked on the head by that thang goin' 'round.​

No apologies necessary, as far as I'm concerned! We all just gotta do what we gotta do. And that's ... OK. Sounds to me like you've got your head on straight and a reasonable outlook. No need to take any guff, or feel guilty, about it your bass journey, either!​

.

Thanks @G-Dog I appreciate that. And much much respect to you.

 

[iagtrplyr]

afterthought

HPF. I don't leave home without it. It'll cure a lot of ills that have nothing to do with an amp's design, and everything to do with the room.

M, you’re on a roll! Some super points made thus proving my point about the array of things to consider when making a purchase, especially for live gigging.

Your Elf rig idea is a great one, but why do I see you jamming to the blues with an Ampeg RB-115 in the future? Weird, huh?