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The Short-Scale Six-String Club Part 2- for the original six-string basses!
- Thread starter Bryan R. Tyler
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Everyone's entitled to their own opinion...but I think you're being a little harsh and making a lot of blind assumptions. Until Kurt officially responds I really don't think its fair to go off and bad-mouth them after he's actually gone through with this. EVEN IF this guitar only takes 24-84s (which if it does, it isn't that hard to make bigger holes for 25-95s, right?), it is still a fantastic deal and if it sells it is only the start...its likely to get even better from here, but the cost will certainly go up. I don't think you should read into Kurt's choice to setup the Argus for lighter strings as a threat to all mankind until we know the facts.
Let's consider a few things here:
1. Cheaper than any other option that I'm aware of at this point (and getting a bari Danelectro and converting it doesn't count).
2. Probably geared more at people "on the fence" about whether or not a Bass VI is for them (because those of us not on the fence have already made some kind of purchase).
3. D'Addario's strings for the Bass VI while in uncommon gauges are 1/2 the cost of Fender's.
4. I'm pretty sure Kurt was looking at what he considered to be his direct price competition the most when building the guitar...the Gretsch Jet Baritone...which comes with 24-84 strings...consider the similarities between it and the Argus Toast. I've never played the Grestch so I have no idea if it takes heavier strings...but I think he was looking at what he came with by default.
5. The people most likely to buy this are either already a guitar player or already a Bass VI player, so probably more accustomed to lighter strings than heavier...I'm leaning towards that those "on the fence" are more likely to buy this than someone who has a vintage Fender Bass VI.
6. All of Rondo Music's guitars come with D'Addario strings these days...probably gets an even better deal on these strings then. Then again, what manufacturer doesn't seem to use the same brand across all their guitars? Schecter also uses D'Addario strings supposedly (according to the hang tag on my Hellcat), even though D'Addario doesn't offer a 25-95 set...Schecter probably has the buying power though to get a 25-95 set out of them.
7. Kurt wouldn't make this guitar if he didn't intend to sell it, and I have to assume that he knows that most people that already have a Bass VI are using the 25-95 sets available and he wouldn't just make this guitar to alienate them.
8. Where exactly is he making a major deal out of using 24-84 strings on this guitar specs exactly? I think Kurt has the best of intentions...trying to clarify it so that if I rush out and buy one then I shouldn't be surprised that its got those strings on it. He's probably afraid of people not being able to differentiate between this guitar and a long scale string bass and trying to get the point across without saying "this is a direct rip-off of a Fender Bass VI and here's a Wikipedia link". Similar to how if you look at the specs of a Fender American Strat on GuitarCenter.com it says that it comes with a set of 10s. Its most likely just a "Head's Up". He probably thinks that setting it up for cheaper, lighter 24-84s is more appropriate for a guitar player buying a Bass VI, that a 25-95 set is for more experienced folks.
9. Eight years ago Rondo Music used to state that all of their guitars had GHS Strings installed at the factory. Go to Guitar Center...a lot of guitars say D'Addario strings installed at the factory. Big deal. Kurt probably gets a kickback for it, that's one of the ways he keeps the cost low (you did see that this guitar is only $400 right? If the Agile will take 25-95s and is as good as I hope then I'm going to find a way to unload my Hellcat VI because at $600 I feel that the Schecter is sort of a turd sandwich...its "okay" but not absolutely great).
10. Man I'd think that everyone would be happy that I wasn't BS-ing you guys this whole time about an Agile VI.
And since as far as I know I'm the only person on this forum that has purchased guitars from Rondo Music before... Yes a lot of his guitars are copies...but cheapo knock-off doesn't belong in the same sentence. I've purchased three guitars from Kurt over the past eight years...two Agiles and one SX. Yes the SX was the cheapest and isn't going to put Gibson out of business any time soon. But the Agiles (a Les Paul copy and an SG copy with P-90s) easily held their own to any high end Epiphone/low end Gibson I've played, at 1/5 the cost. The fact that Kurt would CHOOSE to produce different guitars than every other Jay Turser out there makes shows that he's trying to break the mold a bit...with his 8 string Intrepids and now a Bass VI... I am confident that manufacturing quality is not going to be an issue with these guitars.
I bought a kit and some extra copper tape (which if you decide to do this, IS A MUST for the Hellcat...the kit does not include enough tape to do the whole Hellcat pickguard and control cavities) from Stewart-MacDonald. If you look up "shielding your guitar" or "shielding your strat" you will find a bazillion articles.
In doing this though, I realized that my hum problem was most likely caused by the fluorescent lights that ran along the ceiling of the basement of my old house/practice space... I don't think it made a "night and day" difference, because it still picked up some hum after that, which went away when we started practicing in a different area of the house. And in my new house it is very minimal.
So in my opinion it is not worth the effort (if I remember right it took me at least a couple hours, not to mention the pain of ripping all the strings off and undoing a billion screws and adjusting the truss rod) or the money unless you really have a noise problem. I think also because the pickups are lower output than guitar pickups that is also why it seems that it has more noise than a humbucker equipped guitar...signal to noise ratio.
BTW, I looked at Rondo Music's "other" 6 string basses and they all specify string gauge...you remember he has the short scale 6 string that looks like its still designed to tune to a low B, and he has the long scales.
I'm pretty sure he's just trying to differentiate the products for customers, which is also why he doesn't have the Argus in the 6 string bass section of his website. So I'd just try to breathe for a minute..I think its going to be okay...he's probably only specifying strings so he doesn't get a bunch of returns.
Hopefully he'll check his email tomorrow...guess I'll have to sleep on ordering. Still not totally sure on if I want the LPB or the Toast... Also notice it looks like he as a hard case that will fit it, which is another question I asked him about to be sure before I order.
I'm pretty sure he's just trying to differentiate the products for customers, which is also why he doesn't have the Argus in the 6 string bass section of his website. So I'd just try to breathe for a minute..I think its going to be okay...he's probably only specifying strings so he doesn't get a bunch of returns.
Hopefully he'll check his email tomorrow...guess I'll have to sleep on ordering. Still not totally sure on if I want the LPB or the Toast... Also notice it looks like he as a hard case that will fit it, which is another question I asked him about to be sure before I order.
As far as Hellcat noise and tone goes, have you tried adjusting the pickup height? Mine were all adjusted pretty low from the factory and I made them as close to the strings proportionately as possible without running into them and this significantly increased the output and improved the tone...should help noise slightly.
I sent Kurt an email asking him if Fender VI (25 35 45 55 75 95) strings would intonate properly on the Agile Argus. Here is the response he sent:
So who's going to be the TB guinea pig... er, person to buy and test one?Kurt from Rondo Music said:
I don't have the money, but I bet it will be just fine. The only string in the Fender set that is substantially different from the D'Addario set is the E, the others are very close.
Hehe I knew this thread would heat up once these Agiles were released. I'm glad there is active discussion going on! I just wish I had the spare cash right now, I would buy one immediately and be the guinea pig.
Most importantly, you're a straight up guy and I do respect your opinion. Nothing at all personal here. You've been very helpful answering my questions on this board and I do appreciate that.
Assumptions are different from hypotheses. I stated some hypotheses based on available evidence - primarily Rondo's own promotional material. Their verbiage about intonation specifics/conditions is written in "legaleze" and very atypical in the guitar/bass space. As such to me - as a consumer - it is a glaring red flag. It reads like a legal disclaimer, not just an innocent description.
Should also point out though that while D'Addario's strings for the Bass VI are 1/2 the cost of Fender's this is not an apples to apples comparison as Fender's are stainless while D'A are nickle-wound. In addition, FWIW a CSR at Schecter emailed me they used SIT strings irregardless of what the hang tag on the Cat said.
Anyway, we all have better things to do aside from debate this. Let's hope that Kurt was just ill-advised about the descriptive language vis-a-vis intonation specifics.
If you look closely at the pictures of the black Argus, the E string saddle is maxed out to the rear, suggesting that a larger string would not intonate. But the blue Argus seems to have a bit of travel left on the E saddle, suggesting that it might intonate with the Fender strings. So it might come down to a bass-by-bass basis with these Agiles.
Worse case scenario you can try a different bridge on there that allow for more travel. If it's slightly out at the 20th fret or whatever, no one is going to care, just think of all the awesome lead tracks cut with the Les Paul Junior.
Okay Kurt emailed me back... Seems like he is backed up with holiday orders and doesn't have time to personally check these guitars for awhile, so anyone that wants one now will be the first to find out.
He did say that the low e tuner would have to be drilled out to fit a 95 (similar to what you would do with a burns barracuda I assume).
He also said that if I order and it will not intonate with 25-95s then he will accept it as a return.
He wasn't sure if the argus would fit in the short scale bass case, said to order it and shipping will only send it if it does fit.
He is also unsure if there will be more produced until he sells what he has, customer feedback, etc... He gave me a number of less than 3 dozen currently available...so this is indeed a test run hence the low price.
Given what has been said, I don't think the string size is a conspiracy as much as what was available at the time. If he sells these then it doesn't seem unreasonable to assume that he will make revisions as demanded.
I am going to bite the bullet and order one, so if anyone else is unwilling to be a guinea pig then more power to ya... I feel obligated to support Kurt and give feedback as necessary to further develop it...with his generous return policy if I hate it then I won't have to eat it.
He did say that the low e tuner would have to be drilled out to fit a 95 (similar to what you would do with a burns barracuda I assume).
He also said that if I order and it will not intonate with 25-95s then he will accept it as a return.
He wasn't sure if the argus would fit in the short scale bass case, said to order it and shipping will only send it if it does fit.
He is also unsure if there will be more produced until he sells what he has, customer feedback, etc... He gave me a number of less than 3 dozen currently available...so this is indeed a test run hence the low price.
Given what has been said, I don't think the string size is a conspiracy as much as what was available at the time. If he sells these then it doesn't seem unreasonable to assume that he will make revisions as demanded.
I am going to bite the bullet and order one, so if anyone else is unwilling to be a guinea pig then more power to ya... I feel obligated to support Kurt and give feedback as necessary to further develop it...with his generous return policy if I hate it then I won't have to eat it.
I'm going to have to assume that since that's a standard Strat wiring scheme that it would be on the Argus...but I didn't ask. I can't imagine why he wouldn't, he's made enough Strat copies to know better I'm sure.
I think I'm going to order the Toast model and a hard case (LOOKS like it should fit...the pic has a short Jazz bass in there and this is pretty much the same thing...same length and everything...also curious if my Hellcat will fit in it) because I like the looks better... Also since I play my Hellcat more like a long guitar than a bass then I think this pickup configuration will be fine for me since I don't really need the bass emphasizing positions...and if I do, well I still have my Hellcat for now. If he ends up offering this with the Custom Shop (only available to place Custom Shop orders a couple times a year, and these are usually just basic modifications to existing Agile guitars...mainly paint job, pickups, et cetera) and I like it then I will probably order a 3 pickup at that time just because I'm not sold on LPB...
Actually based on dimensions posted on Rondo Music the Argus is 2.5 inches wider at the widest point than the short scale J bass, which makes it too big for the short scale hard case...probably won't order THAT then. It appears that the only option is a regular scale bass bag...which I'm fine with because I'd rather get that than have the guitar just ship in bubble wrap and cardboard...
EDIT: A potential hard case option looks like the Agile Intrepid 8 string case (made by Douglas).. I can't find dimensions but since the guitars are similar scale lengths (they have sold 30" Intrepids in the past), maybe... Here is the link (you can't find the case on the site except as a recommendation when purchasing the Intrepid): Link Removed
I decided to order with the bass bag for $30 because I don't like giant oblong cases like I have on my Explorer.
EDIT: A potential hard case option looks like the Agile Intrepid 8 string case (made by Douglas).. I can't find dimensions but since the guitars are similar scale lengths (they have sold 30" Intrepids in the past), maybe... Here is the link (you can't find the case on the site except as a recommendation when purchasing the Intrepid): Link Removed
I decided to order with the bass bag for $30 because I don't like giant oblong cases like I have on my Explorer.
Kurt sent me another email after I linked him to the new thread:
He said there is a little play in the 84 so there is likely enough room to move the saddle for a 95.
Mentioning D'Addario is just a way for them to say that they are shipping with brand name strings, as some folks might assume that with lower cost guitars they are using crap strings... Not a big deal to you or I because we are blessed with the power to change strings should we desire, but to some people maybe it is a selling point.
If there is great interest in using 95s over 84s then it is not a problem for future runs, assuming there is significant interest.
He said there is a little play in the 84 so there is likely enough room to move the saddle for a 95.
Mentioning D'Addario is just a way for them to say that they are shipping with brand name strings, as some folks might assume that with lower cost guitars they are using crap strings... Not a big deal to you or I because we are blessed with the power to change strings should we desire, but to some people maybe it is a selling point.
If there is great interest in using 95s over 84s then it is not a problem for future runs, assuming there is significant interest.
If only it were so easy, troyus there are no commercially available wider bridges that would fit, even assuming that the Argus bridge specs are standard Fender (an assumption I'm unwilling to make). Even the Link Removed ($160) is said to not intonate with Fender VI strings by the folks at Offset Guitars, in spite of what is said on the Mastery website. And again, there is no guarantee that the Mastery bridge would even fit the Argus.
With all due respect... I care. I'm sure others do, too. If you want to play an out of tune guitar, be my guest.
Also, we're not talking about it being out of tune at the "20th fret" we're talking about it already being noticeably out of tune by the 12th fret, as that is where intonation is usually checked. I consider that unacceptable.
Terrific, brave sir! Please report your findings in this thread when the instrument arrives, if you would.
When I got my Barracuda and switched out the Baritone A-a strings for Fender Bass VI E-e strings, I didn't have to drill out the hole in the E tuner. The tuner ends of the strings are not fully wrapped, they are a lot thinner than the nut-to-bridge portion.
On the Hellcat, the distance between tailpiece and E-tuner is too short for the Fender E string, so one has to wind a bit of the wrapped part of the string around the tuner. But I don't think any Hellcat-owner has ever had a problem with this.
I have a feeling that with the extra afterlength between the bridge and the vibrato unit, there will be no need to drill out the E-tuner on the Agile.
When I get the cash I will get the 2-pickup black/tort model. The only modification I forsee wanting is a series/parallel option, which shouldn't be difficult for my guitar tech to install.
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