Tonewoods

[CapeBass]

How about tone carbon fibers? I had a Steinberger with a graphite body that had a warm sound, I had another Steinberger with a Maple body and it had a brighter sound. Same bridge, same strings, same neck/fretboard material. Denser materials do make a little difference in sound.

 

[Stu Rose]

I would like to mess up this debate a bit

Newby here but longtime player and hobby-builder

IN my opininion the wood is a very important part of the sound, not perse the maple vs. bubinga, but the piece of maple and or bubinga in question.

I've found that basses that sound well unamplified are without fail the best sounding basses amplified. Logic would then dictate that the electronics do not do much more then exaggerate the good and bad points of the sound already present in the bass.

The question therefor should be. What has the biggest influence the wood quality or the craftmanship of the builder.

Being that from a batch of cheaply made f.i. Chinese or Korean instruments there are always some that do sound far better then the rest of the batch, and opting for same craftmanship on such a batch, my guess is that the woods do make a huge difference. But the distinction is in the quality, not in the type of wood.
To strenghten that point, quality builders (like MTD and Sadowsky) can make a fine sounding bass from any regular type of wood, but they will weed out all the bad pieces of f.i. maple before they come to the piece of tone-wood maple to build it from.

Peter

Greetings,

I've owned some Top Top builders and some sounded great and some sound like ****??? I once order a custom "blank" bass paid $3000.00, waited 6 months and sold it a month later. Horrible tone!

I don't know why it is exactly but wood does need to sound good or have a good ring or vibration to it, but the rest is electronics, picks up, and finger boards.

That's why a P & J sound different because of the pick-ups.

 

[Gard]

Can you listen to a recording and tell what wood the bass is made from?

Again, I make no claims to have sat down and empirically dissected how these all fit together. All I can claim is that I've heard a whole lot of basses with just one or two variables changing (I would venture to say that there are few if any that have my situation to work with! ). I have a pretty uncluttered palate, and have worked with many different combinations of woods in bodies (tops and backs), necks, and fingerboards. Before I came to work here, I had an even larger and more varied sampling to work with (Bass Central's entire inventory!), and I can tell you that I noticed the differences then as well.

Could I hear it in a recording? Define the recording! How was it recorded? What am I listening to it through? How were the preamp controls (if an active bass) set? How did the engineer on the session mix and EQ the recording? Is it just the bass or in context with a band? If with a band, what type of instrumentation is it working with, and what kind of music is it? How did the player PLAY the bass?

With all these variables, maybe I could, maybe I couldn't. The "could you hear the difference in a recording" is as much of a white herring (or MORE) than being able to hear the difference between woods!!!!

Here's the bottom line of what I said:

I listen to dozens and dozens of basses with almost identical specifications, changing just one component of the "wood recipe", and YES, I can tell you there is a marked and defineable difference with changes in wood choices. Some woods are more noticeable than others. Why is beyond my ability to quantify, as I am just a dumb bassist that got so stupidly lucky to have the day gig I've got that I'm still pinching myself every morning when I wake up to remind myself I'm NOT dreaming.

My comments apply only to the basses we make HERE in this shop, so I don't know (nor do I really give a rat's @$$) why a solid mahogany bodied Ibanez is too bright for someone - maybe the electronics overpower the wood? That is quite possible! Did it sound too bright before you plugged it in? Maybe it's just really bright mahogany? Is it African mahogany? Is it Honduran? Is it Philippine? (Ours are Honduran, FYI)

 

[Rodent]

How about tone carbon fibers? I had a Steinberger with a graphite body that had a warm sound, I had another Steinberger with a Maple body and it had a brighter sound. Same bridge, same strings, same neck/fretboard material. Denser materials do make a little difference in sound.

are you absolutely certain that the control pots had the same resistance value, and that the pickups were of identical specification and construction? manufacturers can and do make subtle changes to a product line without broadcasting it via a world-wide press release. it would also be good to be certain that the strings were of the same material, same gauge, and same manufacturer.

something as simple as changing the pot DC resistance value from a 250K to a 500K can have significant impact on the brightness of an instrument ... more impact IMO that simply changing the fingerboard from Rosewood to Ebony or substituting a Alder body for Basswood.

for an even greater impact, change the engineering specs of a specific pickup shape while keeping its resistance the same (i.e. different magnet strength, different wire diameter, different number of windings) ... I know I could keep a lot of you arguing about Alder vs Ash bodies if I changed a pot value or pickup, because most would not even think to investigate these parts of the picture since they are visually identical.


when comparing two basses, it's always good to make sure all things except the specific component are truly equal before making generic statements about which wood has which characteristics

all the best,

R

 

[Gard]

when comparing two basses, it's always good to make sure all things except the specific component are truly equal before making generic statements about which wood has which characteristics

all the best,

R

Which I can do in my situation - I can assure you that EVERY DETAIL is monitored and we know of ANY change in any component. All things equal, I can indeed hear the difference between alder and ash!

 

[ggunn]

Is there even a ghost of a chance that anything anyone could post here will change anyone's opinion on the subject? I didn't think so. Carry on... ;^)

 

[lowphatbass]

Although there may be a few out there that disagree, the difference between bolt-on and neck-thru basses are clearly audible and not just a construction choice, IMO. There is a clear difference between the attack and decay of the note. The difference between a maple and rosewood/fp fretboard is also clearly audible in the front-end of the attack, while player's opinions vary about this I have yet to hear any builder/luthier disagree....Another thing....some people here swear by that little device that clamps onto a headstock to shift/minimize dead spots, it's not supposed to effect tone but changing the resonance clearly effects how a bass plays.
I believe what builders/luthiers have to say about body woods effecting the tone of a bass. If you've ever practiced with your ear or jaw bone pressed-up to the body of your bass then you know how much it resonates. I don't claim to be able to hear the difference between ash and alder, or what a maple top gives in comparison to a burl walnut top. I do know that wood sounds good to me(and most of us) otherwise there would be more synthetic basses on the market.

 

[ggunn]

Although there may be a few out there that disagree, the difference between bolt-on and neck-thru basses are clearly audible and not just a construction choice, IMO. There is a clear difference between the attack and decay of the note.

Ah, well, here we go. Anybody want to argue about cables while we're at it? ;^)

 

[peterpalmieri]

Ah, well, here we go. Anybody want to argue about cables while we're at it? ;^)

I have ABed cables and it they do sound different.....

To the point of this discussion in a double blind test or on a recording I could almost guarantee I couldn't tell any difference, even in a live situation probably.

That doesn't mean it doesn't matter or it's not worth the discussion.

Is there even a ghost of a chance that anything anyone could post here will change anyone's opinion on the subject?

Maybe not but those of us that do not test sound waves can still learn allot from it.

 

[Rodent]

Which I can do in my situation - I can assure you that EVERY DETAIL is monitored and we know of ANY change in any component. All things equal, I can indeed hear the difference between alder and ash!

I believe you when you say it, Gard ... but you are in a very unique position and opportunity to speak on this, as you get to hear the significant differences between many basses utilizing identical materials - even body woods.



I guess the real $1,000,000 question on this topic is ... can the average concert attendee discern the difference between Ash or Alder out on the dance floor, or do they simply perceive that the 'very wood educated' bassist absolutely sucks in laying down a solid groove, and that the completely wood ignorant bassist in the previous band who played a $150 OLP made the evening with their solid and slinky grooves



all the best,

R

 

[ggunn]

Maybe not but those of us that do not test sound waves can still learn allot from it.

If you learn anything from this discussion, IMO it should be that hearing is subjective and that folks get very attached to their pet theories.

FWIW, I have a raft of cables of all different makes and models, and they all sound the same to me. If you hear a difference then it's real to you. Whether I or anyone else hears what you do is immaterial.

 

[Gard]

I believe you when you say it, Gard ... but you are in a very unique position and opportunity to speak on this, as you get to hear the significant differences between many basses utilizing identical materials - even body woods.



I guess the real $1,000,000 question on this topic is ... can the average concert attendee discern the difference between Ash or Alder out on the dance floor, or do they simply perceive that the 'very wood educated' bassist absolutely sucks in laying down a solid groove, and that the completely wood ignorant bassist in the previous band who played a $150 OLP made the evening with their solid and slinky grooves



all the best,

R

Now, here we see 100% eye-to-eye!

The tone thing is pretty esoteric and only applies to geeks like us...



...that said, if YOU like a particular tone, and a particular group of woods/electronics/amplification helps you achieve this tone (I'm also firmly of the opinion that at least 60% of your tone is in your HANDS), then it will help you with getting your groove on, right?

 

[peterpalmieri]

If you learn anything from this discussion, IMO it should be that hearing is subjective and that folks get very attached to their pet theories.

FWIW, I have a raft of cables of all different makes and models, and they all sound the same to me. If you hear a difference then it's real to you. Whether I or anyone else hears what you do is immaterial.

That is very interesting....I AB'd a monster bass cable with a spectraflex at the Groove Shoppe with Beez. While the difference in the Electric bass was minimal but aparent there was a very different tone when the upright was put into the mix. The monster was darker or you might say the Spectra was brighter....

Like I said it was much less noticable with the EB vs. DB....

 

[Big String]

I own the extact same bass (maybe), I purchased mine used from the Guitar Center in Carle Place, NY....It has the passive Fralins but the back is routed to accomodate an active pre if you so desired. Send me a PM and I'll give you the serial number if you'd like.

I would doubt they are the same I thought "Joey Squid" traded this in to the GC right before I purchased it. It is however the best bass I've ever played, so much so that I sold all my others. I would have to be offered a huge amount over the new selling prices of these instruments to even consider ever getting rid of her. I'm not teasing you but just want to illustrate how important she is to me!

We've been pm'ing
This is in fact Thee Bass. You lucky dog!
I feel like I've been reunited with a long lost child I gave up for adoption.

 

[higgi]

I think there is a difference with woods and construction, but one is not better than the other. Some people put foam under their strings to kill sustain, some people put extra heavy bridges on to increase sustain. Both basses could be used in the same situation with different but enjoyable sounds. Most people wouldn't even notice the difference, to some people the difference would be obvious.

Just play which ever bass you like. You can play an upright bass made of fiber glass or an electric bass made out of concrete and still carry the groove.

Music is subjective.

 

[ggunn]

That is very interesting....I AB'd a monster bass cable with a spectraflex at the Groove Shoppe with Beez. While the difference in the Electric bass was minimal but aparent there was a very different tone when the upright was put into the mix. The monster was darker or you might say the Spectra was brighter....

Well, like I said, hearing is subjective.

 

[GreyBeard]

It's all about what happens at the bridge. Whether hollow or solid body, its the energy going back through the bridge to the string that colors the sound.
There really is no debating that this occurs. The issue arises from different people's ability and willingness to hear, and just the general kind of weird BS that occurs in forums, hot air. Most of us can at least tell maple from mahogany, there is really just a few stubborn people who would rather appear smart while thrashing their brains on science then stop and listen....real musicians can hear it easily. But not all who play instruments are musicians.

+1

 

[ggunn]

(Originally Posted by bearfoot)
It's all about what happens at the bridge. Whether hollow or solid body, its the energy going back through the bridge to the string that colors the sound.
There really is no debating that this occurs. The issue arises from different people's ability and willingness to hear, and just the general kind of weird BS that occurs in forums, hot air. Most of us can at least tell maple from mahogany, there is really just a few stubborn people who would rather appear smart while thrashing their brains on science then stop and listen....real musicians can hear it easily. But not all who play instruments are musicians.

Jeez, could ya be a little more condescending, please? I think there's still a couple of us who still have a little self-respect left. ;^)

 

[improvpwnd]

Let's break it down:

Bass Sound = Wood/Materials + Construction + Bass Electronics (including pickups) + amp/speaker(s) + player + strings

The only real question is how much does each factor contribute to the overall sound?

In my not so humble opinion, it breaks down like this:

Bass Sound = 10%wood/materials + 10%construction + 15% Bass Electronics + 25%amp/speakers + 25%player + 15% strings

This is, of course, my opinion and holds precisely zero real value.

In summary: Is the body wood a factor? Yes, definitely. Is it the all-defining influential factor? No.

I just buy basses that fit me, fit my budget, fit my style, and sound good. I have basses made from maple, bubinga, and walnut, and they all sound good, but with their own unique sounds.

Yep.

 

[The Penguin]

Again, I make no claims to have sat down and empirically dissected how these all fit together. All I can claim is that I've heard a whole lot of basses with just one or two variables changing (I would venture to say that there are few if any that have my situation to work with! ). I have a pretty uncluttered palate, and have worked with many different combinations of woods in bodies (tops and backs), necks, and fingerboards. Before I came to work here, I had an even larger and more varied sampling to work with (Bass Central's entire inventory!), and I can tell you that I noticed the differences then as well.

Could I hear it in a recording? Define the recording! How was it recorded? What am I listening to it through? How were the preamp controls (if an active bass) set? How did the engineer on the session mix and EQ the recording? Is it just the bass or in context with a band? If with a band, what type of instrumentation is it working with, and what kind of music is it? How did the player PLAY the bass?

With all these variables, maybe I could, maybe I couldn't. The "could you hear the difference in a recording" is as much of a white herring (or MORE) than being able to hear the difference between woods!!!!

Here's the bottom line of what I said:

I listen to dozens and dozens of basses with almost identical specifications, changing just one component of the "wood recipe", and YES, I can tell you there is a marked and defineable difference with changes in wood choices. Some woods are more noticeable than others. Why is beyond my ability to quantify, as I am just a dumb bassist that got so stupidly lucky to have the day gig I've got that I'm still pinching myself every morning when I wake up to remind myself I'm NOT dreaming.

My comments apply only to the basses we make HERE in this shop, so I don't know (nor do I really give a rat's @$$) why a solid mahogany bodied Ibanez is too bright for someone - maybe the electronics overpower the wood? That is quite possible! Did it sound too bright before you plugged it in? Maybe it's just really bright mahogany? Is it African mahogany? Is it Honduran? Is it Philippine? (Ours are Honduran, FYI)

So no then?