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Tonewoods

#121
Hasn't anyone ever done any scientific testing on this? People just argue based on different experiences in different music stores, which is very subjective.

At the very least you could do a double-blind a/b test on a common bass. I'm sure there are people on here who own both ash and alder jazz basses for instance. Throw new sets of the same strings on and play away. You could also look at the signal digitally to see what is going on, use smaartlive or something...
 
#123
lowphatbass said:
This is all fouled up!
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:D

All I'm saying is for people that own 2 or 3 or even 5 of basically the same bass to make the claim that they sound different because of ash, alder or whatever is bogus. There are simply too many variables between basses. Once you get into triple digits, basses manufactured at the same shop/plant then I lend credence to ones opinion. If a QC guy tells me that he can hear the difference I buy it.
I agree with you about almost all of this, I think where we differ is that you want undeniable proof before changing you're opinion and I am willing to take someones word on it because I recognize their experience with this topic is far greater than mine. I can totally respect someone sticking to their guns on something like this.
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I'm still not sure why that was after my quote but I'll get over it :)

I'm not asking for undeniable proof, in most cases I'm just asking for a definition of the claimed ability. Any evidence where I don't have to believe in the ability first to see it would be nice though. Simply asking what something means is enough to send many folks off the edge here. If I was in someone's house claiming I could bench press 500 pounds and they said they had a bench in the garage it seems obvious the next question would be could I do it now.

When I read boastful claims and ask if they can show me I usually get attacked as stupid or not a real musician. How is this question different than asking for a picture when someone says they bought a new 13 string bass? How come people don't freak out when asked for pictures of basses?
 
#124
bearfoot said:
Ok Bass Friends, we're obviously at an impass on this issue. So, I did what any good American would do. I submitted the question to Mythbusters!
I hope they do this one!
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That show drives me nuts, they make so many assumptions and arbitrary decisions. And what's with all the ballistic jelly!!! :)

I think it's a mistake to define this too narrowly. Any one who wants to dismiss the results of any test can simply dismiss it as not specific to them. But if you look at the thousands and thousands of tests done on human perception and how our prejudice influences them you can see a bigger phenomena that this is just a small slice of.

Search for the Lee Sklar producer switch for a story showing how easy it is to fool top professionals & experts. Or watch this Penn & Teller clip (warning, grown up cable TV language) The examples are endless, it seems so odd to me for anyone to fight to continue to be deceived. So I ask questions :)
 
#125
alexit said:
Hasn't anyone ever done any scientific testing on this? People just argue based on different experiences in different music stores, which is very subjective.
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There are hundreds of years of study on the subject, more specifically some casual testing has been done here. The threads asking people if they can tell the difference between a P and a J or the one comparing a P to a Variax are pretty good. Lot's of posts telling us how stupid the tests are and why they're rigged and other excuses. But also an absence of experts getting it right. The opportunity to demonstrate any of these claims is there for anyone willing to try it.
 
#126
spade2you said:
I don't think anyone would be willing to do it. There are too many variables that would really need to be assessed to keep it a 100% legit experiment. It could be done, but it would cost a lot of money and time.....unless you wanna pony up.
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It would cost nothing, all someone has to do is post a few clips and then all the people who say they can always tell the difference will tell us what the wood is. This has already been done here more than once.
 
#128
spade2you said:
You'd need identical basses with only one variable difference. Everything else would need to be identical for it to be legit.
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Aren't you one of the people who've claimed to do this with your Peaveys? Haven't you posted many times about how you have 2 Cirrus with only the wood being different? Am I mixing you up with someone else?
 
#129
Well, I'm still of the camp that thinks wood does have an impact on the tone of a bass, to a certain extent (and NO, I can't/won't do a blind test to pick out what's what;) ).

But in the end, I guess, it boils down to one thing--If a bass sounds like I want it to, it really doesn't matter what factors make it have that sound. I could care less if the body was made of recycled grass clippings, as long as it sounds good.

But I do like the looks of fancy wood tops--even if they are just there for looks, and nothing else.
 
#130
The Penguin said:
Aren't you one of the people who've claimed to do this with your Peaveys? Haven't you posted many times about how you have 2 Cirrus with only the wood being different? Am I mixing you up with someone else?
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Wood can sometimes vary from one piece to the next. Each piece of lumber would need to be screened for a specific density range. That way you'd eliminate variation due to different tones from the same species of lumber. Mine may sound different, but it's not quite possible to say rule out that my basses sound differen for other reasons.
 
#131
I came across a bit of a "proof" while laying in bed the other night. I was just strumming my new Spector, and for whatever odd reason, had the bass held up directly to my ear. And I could hear all kinds of detail that you usually don't hear through an amp. So I tried it with a Lakland and an old MIM Fender too. One is maple, one is ash, and one is alder. And I could definitely tell a HUGE difference between the three.

I know it's not definitive science, but you have to admit that different materials have different acoustic properties. And that affects how the strings vibrate (to whatever degree). If you take something soft and not very dense (like a hollow plastic bat) and hit a metal pole, it makes a thud and doesn't hurt your hand as much. But if you took a dense, solid metal bat and hit a metal pole with it, you'd here a loud "ping" and it would hurt like hell!

I dunno...I thought I was on to something so I went with it.
 
#133
spade2you said:
I don't think anyone would be willing to do it. There are too many variables that would really need to be assessed to keep it a 100% legit experiment. It could be done, but it would cost a lot of money and time.....unless you wanna pony up.
Click to expand...

all part of the soundclip library you'll be able to reference once I get my official web page up and running. I've been working on this for a while now ... here's what you'll eventually be able to access

body A + neck A + strings A + pickup A = soundclip 1
body A + neck A + strings A + pickup B = soundclip 2
body B + neck A + strings A + pickup A = soundclip 3
body B + neck A + strings A + pickup B = soundclip 4
body A + neck A + strings B + pickup A = soundclip 5
body A + neck B + strings A + pickup A = soundclip 6

etc ... where

body A = 1-3/4" thick Alder
body B = 1-3/4" thick Ash
body C = 1-5/8" thick Alder
body D = 1-5/8" thick Ash

pickup A = Nordstrand NP-4
pickup B = Lindy Fralin P-bass
pickup C = Bartolini 8CBP

etc ... etc ... etc ...

as the library grows, it ought to become obvious the nuances that each change makes to the overall soundscape, or if changing a body (same material or different material) has any relevant impact at all. all clips are of significant length, using the exact same signal chain, all running flat, and no effects. the library will utilize the same midi accompanyment for two specific songs so that the playing field is again leveled. the link I provided earlier (several pages back) is just a teaser of what's to come.

I know what I have observed in my building projects to date ... and some of it flies in the face of some well known company's marketing hype. a lot of it contradicts what some people in this thread have said. the sound library ought to reveal all, while letting the construction components speak for themselves, eh?

while it won't bring this never ending debate to a finale, it surely ought to provide insight as to who here is blowing smoke and who is speaking reality.


all the best,

R

p.s. I'll eventually create a similar subset of soundclips for top loader vs thru body stringing ... this ought to be more lethal to smoke blowers than the above library, eh? :cool:
 
#135
ggunn said:
Mike has basses to sell, so I wouldn't expect him to be impartial.
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Same with Gard, but that doesn't mean that they don't know good tone woods. They know the instruments because they work with so many and are able to note the differences from the various wood configs. This doesn't necessarily mean that it will apply to other brands, which can somewhat diminish their results. Trying to apply their results to other companies may vary.
 
#136
Rodent said:
all part of the soundclip library you'll be able to reference once I get my official web page up and running. I've been working on this for a while now ... here's what you'll eventually be able to access

body A + neck A + strings A + pickup A = soundclip 1
body A + neck A + strings A + pickup B = soundclip 2
body B + neck A + strings A + pickup A = soundclip 3
body B + neck A + strings A + pickup B = soundclip 4
body A + neck A + strings B + pickup A = soundclip 5
body A + neck B + strings A + pickup A = soundclip 6

etc ... where

body A = 1-3/4" thick Alder
body B = 1-3/4" thick Ash
body C = 1-5/8" thick Alder
body D = 1-5/8" thick Ash

pickup A = Nordstrand NP-4
pickup B = Lindy Fralin P-bass
pickup C = Bartolini 8CBP

etc ... etc ... etc ...

as the library grows, it ought to become obvious the nuances that each change makes to the overall soundscape, or if changing a body (same material or different material) has any relevant impact at all. all clips are of significant length, using the exact same signal chain, all running flat, and no effects. the library will utilize the same midi accompanyment for two specific songs so that the playing field is again leveled. the link I provided earlier (several pages back) is just a teaser of what's to come.

I know what I have observed in my building projects to date ... and some of it flies in the face of some well known company's marketing hype. a lot of it contradicts what some people in this thread have said. the sound library ought to reveal all, while letting the construction components speak for themselves, eh?

while it won't bring this never ending debate to a finale, it surely ought to provide insight as to who here is blowing smoke and who is speaking reality.


all the best,

R

p.s. I'll eventually create a similar subset of soundclips for top loader vs thru body stringing ... this ought to be more lethal to smoke blowers than the above library, eh? :cool:
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Wow! The thread discussing THAT little lot will be something to see. I'm glad I won't have to moderate it. ;)

Should be awesome, though, good luck with the project.
 
#137
Rodent said:
are you absolutely certain that the control pots had the same resistance value, and that the pickups were of identical specification and construction? manufacturers can and do make subtle changes to a product line without broadcasting it via a world-wide press release. it would also be good to be certain that the strings were of the same material, same gauge, and same manufacturer.

something as simple as changing the pot DC resistance value from a 250K to a 500K can have significant impact on the brightness of an instrument ... more impact IMO that simply changing the fingerboard from Rosewood to Ebony or substituting a Alder body for Basswood.

for an even greater impact, change the engineering specs of a specific pickup shape while keeping its resistance the same (i.e. different magnet strength, different wire diameter, different number of windings) ... I know I could keep a lot of you arguing about Alder vs Ash bodies if I changed a pot value or pickup, because most would not even think to investigate these parts of the picture since they are visually identical.


when comparing two basses, it's always good to make sure all things except the specific component are truly equal before making generic statements about which wood has which characteristics

all the best,

R
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I do know Steinbergers are very consistent, same pots? I never read the specs on them so I don't know for sure if they're different, but they were both top end basses from this company. Same EMG's, same exact strings.
 
#138
CapeBass said:
I do know Steinbergers are very consistent, same pots? I never read the specs on them so I don't know for sure if they're different, but they were both top end basses from this company. Same EMG's, same exact strings.
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for reference:

Steinberger XL-2 used EMG 85s (humbucking) pickups
Steinberger Synapse uses EMG 40P pickups

This small (and most likely invisible) difference can account for a HUGE difference in sound spectrum output. I would suffice to say that the comparison between these two models is not a valid reference due to the pickup differences, as not everything besides the body materials is equal.

I'm sure you hear a difference between the two basses. I'm also sure that it has significantly more to it than just the body material


FWIW - I used to own an XL-2 (ser# 106*), and the whole one piece construction was cool ... but the sound never worked in the context of an 80's Rush, Yes, Triumph 3-piece rock band.

all the best,

R
 

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