Trying Vegetarianism for a week or so

[electracoyote]

Noone you know is going to puke at the sight of a bean, stop being dramatic.

I can't be as accepting because there are few, if any, environmental negatives with legume farming as opposed to factory farms.

Wow, touchy touchy.

Okay, I was exaggerating, but just a little. I have literally seen a child barf when his mom tried to get him to eat something he didn't want to eat. My point is readily understandable, valid, and stands.

And I have no sympathy for your lack of acceptance, only pity.

Like I said, how come it's usually the do-gooders who can't adopt the most basic of human rights and respect principles, like Live and Let Live? It's one of the most curious aspects of those who would like to control what others eat, drink, smoke, think, etc.

Don't worry, we'll get that chicken farm cleaned up, just as soon as we get every other dirty industry in the country cleaned up. Meat and those who eat it are not your enemy and they are not doing you any harm. Mankind's overall irresponsibility with the environment is.

 

[DwaynieAD]

You might like seitan. Much more meat textured than tofu.

hail seitan

 

[boynamedsuse]

Hey boynamedsuse, I have a question. And this is totally serious and not contnentious.

Where is the information found on how much protein a person needs? A lot of people are concerned with getting enough protein, but I've not run across any guidelines that say you should have X grams of protein a day and here's why.

I'm well aware of what protein does, but how much does a person actuall need? You, as an example, need0.7 g/lb of body weight because you're actively trying to add muscle mass. What about the average Joe or Jane that's just looking at a moderate amount of physical exertion?

My best suggestion is to do a search at PubMed online.

Let me add that the requirement is often based on lean body mass. For example, if a bodybuilder is running 8% body fat and 200 lbs. weight, his lean body mass would be 184 lbs.

 

[electracoyote]

Sure, plenty of sources can provide the information for one to educate themselves, but education of any matter is always the individuals responsibility.

Seems a rather odd point to try and counter. Who was responsible for your education?

For providing my education, for desseminating the information. Yes, I had to open my eyes, stay awake, and listen to what I was being told.

That was the weirdest hair-splitting episode of the week. But it's what I've come to expect from you Matti. I think my point about health and nutrition education was pretty self-explanatory and valid.

I dont think anyone here is making this argument but you.

I think you should re-read the thread, Kawai-chang's posts in particular.

 

[Kaa]

hail seitan

LOL!!

 

[electracoyote]

I can't be as accepting because there are few, if any, environmental negatives with legume farming as opposed to factory farms.

Thanks for that challenge Kawai. It made me ask the question, "What is the impact on the environment from producing meat substitute food products."

I mean, it stands to reason that meat substitute products, like all processed foods, create a lot of waste and pollutants, but I had no idea.

I just Googled that a bit. Shocking. I highly recommend anyone who is under the illusion that meat substitute food products are less harmful to the environment or create less harmful waste than meat processing to do some reading on the subject.

Nothing could be further from the truth.

Anyway, last post, I'm done here. Have at it boys.

 

[Kaa]

Wow, touchy touchy.

Not at all.


Okay, I was exaggerating, but just a little. I have literally seen a child barf when his mom tried to get him to eat something he didn't want to eat. My point is readily understandable, valid, and stands.

A child throwing up in the midst of a tantrum is a far piece from an adult throwing up in response to seeing a foodstuff.

And I have no sympathy for your lack or acceptance, only pity.

I never asked for your sympathy.


Like I said, how come it's usually the do-gooders who can't adopt the most basic of human rights and respect principles, like Live and Let Live? It's one of the most curious aspects of those who would like to control what others eat, drink, smoke, think, etc.

Maybe because they see a problem with what people are doing, whehter those people will admit it or not?

Don't worry, we'll get that chicken farm cleaned up, just as soon as we get every other dirty industry in the country cleaned up. Meat and those who eat it are not your enemy and they are not doing you any harm. Mankind's overall irresponsibility with the environment is.

I agree that mankind's irresponsibility is at fault. but what is the difference betyween a chicken farm polluting or a chemical plant polluting? Is it a "shades of grey" thing where the chemicals are worse? Or are both bad and should be halted?

 

[MatticusMania]

Thanks for that challenge Kawai. It made me ask the question, "What is the impact on the environment from producing meat substitute food products."

Odd, its right there in your quote so I dont know how you could have made such an error, but I believe Kawai-chang asked about legume farming in comparison to factory farming.

meat substitutes are not legumes...

And to speak on the matter of "live and let live", I just find it funny that whenever there is a thread concerning vegetarianism, inevitably, someone comes along and states something to the effect of "we're supposed to eat meat, our evolutionary basis is founded on meat eating, etc."

I mean, its cool with me that others eat meat, but why is it when I provide my reasoning for not eating it, without imposing my views on anyone else or calling for regulation, that others feel the need to question or argue against them? What happened to "live and let live"?

 

[Kaa]

Odd, its right there in your quote so I dont know how you could have made such an error, but I believe Kawai-chang asked about legume farming in comparison to factory farming.

meat substitutes are not legumes...

thank you.

 

[mrbell321]

I check your study. Here is one of the conclusion.

Within the study population, total mortality was unrelated to avoidance of meat. However, vegetarians had a 30 % lower risk of dying from ischemic heart diseases compared to non-vegetarians.

Within the study population, total mortality was unrelated to avoidance of meat. However, vegetarians had a 30 % lower risk of dying from ischemic heart diseases compared to non-vegetarians. Although this finding failed to reach statistical significance, it may be truly attributed to abstinence from meat and is in line with the hypothesis that animal fat and a high cholesterol diet promote ischemic heart disease, commented Jenny Chang-Claude. Smoking turned out to have the strongest influence on mortality in this study population, despite the low prevalence of smoking among the study participants. Regular alcohol consumption was only found to be associated with risk of dying from cancer, while being overweight increased mortality from circulatory diseases. A moderate or high level of physical activity, on the other hand, turned out to have a strong protective effect against all causes of death, including deaths from cardiovascular diseases and cancer.

There was no difference in the mortality of vegetarians and health conscious non-vegetarians in the study population. “But both groups lead a very health conscious lifestyle, which clearly differentiates them from the general population,” epidemiologist Chang-Claude said. For vegetarians and non-vegetarians alike, the recommendations for a long healthy life are: no smoking, regular exercise, a diet rich in fruit and vegetables, moderate alcohol consumption and avoiding overweight.

Here is the link.
Invalid Link Removed

Fair enough. However, you should still check out the China Study. The evidence presented there is much more

Okay, I was exaggerating, but just a little. I have literally seen a child barf when his mom tried to get him to eat something he didn't want to eat. My point is readily understandable, valid, and stands.

Yeah, I used to pull that crap when I was a kid too. And I knew what I was doing. I making myself sick because I was throwing a tantrum. It had very little to do with the food.

And I have no sympathy for your lack of acceptance, only pity.

Thanks, but no thanks.

Like I said, how come it's usually the do-gooders who can't adopt the most basic of human rights and respect principles, like Live and Let Live? It's one of the most curious aspects of those who would like to control what others eat, drink, smoke, think, etc.

For the ethical vegan, it has very little to do w/ what YOU eat. It has much more to do w/ how your behavior negatively impacts others. I don't want to control your life at all. I have zero interest in that. What I do want is to prevent suffering from being forced on anything capable of feeling fear and pain(at this point someone will surely say "well plants can be shown to feel fear and pain"; to which I won't respond unless there is some actual evidence).

Don't worry, we'll get that chicken farm cleaned up, just as soon as we get every other dirty industry in the country cleaned up. Meat and those who eat it are not your enemy and they are not doing you any harm. Mankind's overall irresponsibility with the environment is.

Why should the meat industry be the last to get cleaned up when it is in the 10 sources of greenhouse gas? Perhaps it should be one of the first 10 to be "cleaned up"

Well, I like to maintain my dominance in the food chain. I will eat and not be eaten.

Ridiculous. Just completely ridiculous.

 

[electracoyote]

Odd, its right there in your quote so I dont know how you could have made such an error, but I believe Kawai-chang asked about legume farming in comparison to factory farming.

meat substitutes are not legumes...

Yes, I took it upon myself to address another issue that I thought was closely related to the whole environment topic. Many posters have suggested meat substitutes, yet no one has checked into the environmental impact of those. Seems a little hypocritical to only bash the livestock industry when in fact the problem is every processed food industry, many of which vegetarians and vegans heartily subscribe.

I concede the negative impact on the environment is nil with legumes. Duh. Happy? I would also counter that many would never realistically consider making legumes their only source of protein, so I went on to address a valid point about others' suggestions to use meat substitutes, the production of which DOES have a negative impact on the environment.

And to speak on the matter of "live and let live", I just find it funny that whenever there is a thread concerning vegetarianism, inevitably, someone comes along and states something to the effect of "we're supposed to eat meat, our evolutionary basis is founded on meat eating, etc."

I mean, its cool with me that others eat meat, but why is it when I provide my reasoning for not eating it, without imposing my views on anyone else or calling for regulation, that others feel the need to question or argue against them? What happened to "live and let live"?

Beats me buddy. Your reasoning for not eating meat sounds just fine to me. I couldn't care less what your explanation is, it's really none of my damn business. I suggest you pose this question to those who have critiqued your reasoning. Frankly, I find it rude, pompous, and assuming to question how other people structure their dietary intake.

Live and let live.

 

[electracoyote]

@ mrbell:

Kindly keep your ethics in regards to what people should and should not eat to yourself, do not impose them on me, and I will have the same consideration for you. Sounds more than fair.

And yes, all the main offenders in polluting the environment should be cleaned up. There is no reason to believe that should impact my ability to eat meat, so I'm 100% for it.

 

[blendermassacre]

nothing is more hilarious than seeing how bent out of shape people get about what other people eat. It's more absurd than getting bent out of shape about what two grown ups do with their genitals.

 

[electracoyote]

nothing is more hilarious than seeing how bent out of shape people get about what other people eat. It's more absurd than getting bent out of shape about what two grown ups do with their genitals.

I couldn't have said it better myself.

 

[MJ5150]

I thought you checked out of this thread a few posts ago?

-Mike

 

[blendermassacre]

I thought you checked out of this thread a few posts ago?

-Mike

Just stood back, not checked out.

 

[MJ5150]

Just stood back, not checked out.

Not you, electracoyote. He/she didn't even make it one hour.

It's comical to watch people make comments about how they're done with a thread, then come right back and post anyways. A mini "I'm leaving TB" hissy fit if you will.

-Mike

 

[electracoyote]

I thought you checked out of this thread a few posts ago?

-Mike

Just stood back, not checked out.

I mean, isn't seeing me here the proof that I'm not quite done?

Or is this where the SERIOUS nit-picking begins. I find that just as petty and comical as you do Mike!

 

[Mysterion]

Wow, stepped away from this for a day, and things got a bit exercised...

Rather than try to take on every point--good and bad--I'd like to share a few germane points:

1: The meat industry benefits greatly from enormous government grain subsidies; our huge production is not strictly a triumph of the free market. With the price of meat artificially low, consumption goes up.

2: Nobody is sending a posse of jack-booted, hip-hop-listening thugs to pry the hamburger from your cold, dead hands. Most attempts at regulation are focused on environmental issues, sanitation, and nominal issues of animal cruelty. If you really want to see what an unregulated meat industry looks like, read The Jungle.

3: Finally, dietary choices affect more than just mortality; they affect quality of life. The "vegetarians don't live any longer" argument is a straw man.

 

[MJ5150]

Anyway, last post, I'm done here. Have at it boys.

I'm not sure where I'm nitpicking in that post, but OK.

I quite like your posts, so I was sad when you said you were done. I'm glad you're back.

-Mike