Was there any good punk rock?

[monkeyfinger]

Can arguably go back to include MC5 as well. It's interesting as to where the dividing line is with the more sophisticated bands like The Stranglers, The Attractions, etc. I saw Midnight Oil's very first US show (awesome - March, 1984) and they absolutely played with 'punk' commitment - questionable as to how to classify them though I'd tend to just call them "rock".

MC5 is a great example. One could make a good argument that they were the original punk band.

 

[Grinderman]

How do you account for Californian punk's mainstream popularity in the 90s and 00s then?

Punk's not dead. This thread is testament enough.

Mainstream popularity aside, they don't even account for what's happening in 2022. Obviously, they're oblivious.

 

[FryFunk]

The “rock is dead” trope is almost as old as it is false: rock music is very much alive today.

It's almost as if each generation gets weaker and weaker than the year before.

I just wrapped up a six week arena tour with crowds of 15k-20k every night, and a bunch of friends just played Rock am Ring in Germany to nearly 100k people.

And what's the average age of those crowds 35?

The biggest “rockstars” still travel in private jets and are multi-millionaires: it might not be quite as opulent as it was in the 70’s and 80’s, but rock music still does massive business.

The "biggest rockstars" are legacy acts.

The music doesn't die overnight, it's on a steep steep decline.

If you told me 20 years ago, that rock was competing with Jazz amongst 15 year olds, I'd laugh myself out of my chair.

Nowadays it's becoming quite common, that rock is ranked 5th 6th or even 7th, among people under 20.

And if they do actually listen to rock, the vast majority of the time they listen to acts who's youngest members are in their late 30s, and quite often in their 50s and 60s.

 

[DrummerwStrings]

Can arguably go back to include MC5 as well. It's interesting as to where the dividing line is with the more sophisticated bands like The Stranglers, The Attractions, etc. I saw Midnight Oil's very first US show (awesome - March, 1984) and they absolutely played with 'punk' commitment - questionable as to how to classify them though I'd tend to just call them "rock".

I say Alternative or College rock & leave it at that. Dealing with circular arguments about which section of the record store a band should be placed became tiring, & it was about the early ‘80s when I realized the subject was more important for the Record & Radio companies’ Marketing plans. Many bands that were considered the standard bearers for this or that genre hung out with bands from genres that the fans fought with like cats & dogs. Looking for good music is more important than purity of genre & drawing boundaries.

 

[FryFunk]

I say Alternative or College rock & leave it at that. Dealing with circular arguments about which section of the record store a band should be placed became tiring, & it was about the early ‘80s when I realized the subject was more important for the Record & Radio companies’ Marketing plans. Many bands that were considered the standard bearers for this or that genre hung out with bands from genres that the fans fought with like cats & dogs.

Looking for good music is more important than purity of genre & drawing boundaries.

This is just flat out not a thing. Regular everyday people want to know what they are getting into when they go into a club to see a live act etc.

My wife is gonna leave the roof when a lead singer starts growling or screaming into a mike, a random assortment quater tones out of key.

Rock music is fast becoming something not worth seeing live, because quality issues are so consistently a problem.

 

[E2942]

MC5 helped kick it off, but I think Iggy was the grandfather of it all, he was Punk years before they had a name for it.

 

[Grinderman]

It's almost as if each generation gets weaker and weaker than the year before.




And what's the average age of those crowds 35?




The "biggest rockstars" are legacy acts.

The music doesn't die overnight, it's on a steep steep decline.

If you told me 20 years ago, that rock was competing with Jazz amongst 15 year olds, I'd laugh myself out of my chair.

Nowadays it's becoming quite common, that rock is ranked 5th 6th or even 7th, among people under 20.

And if they do actually listen to rock, the vast majority of the time they listen to acts who's youngest members are in their late 30s, and quite often in their 50s and 60s.

Punk did that?

 

[58kites]

Music has no boundaries.

Well said, and I agree.

 

[Grinderman]

This is just flat out not a thing. Regular everyday people want to know what they are getting into when they go into a club to see a live act etc.

My wife is gonna leave the roof when a lead singer starts growling or screaming into a mike, a random assortment quater tones out of key.

Rock music is fast becoming something not worth seeing live, because quality issues are so consistently a problem.

Here's a tip, take her out to see Barry Manilow.

Or maybe you'd like this.

 

[Dynacord]

MC5 helped kick it off, but I think Iggy was the grandfather of it all, he was Punk years before they had a name for it.

I agree. I mentioned MC5 in addition to The Stooges as Monkeyfinger had included them. Iggy really does seem 'it'.

 

[E2942]

Iggy was SO Punk that Blondie got circled into the Punk category just because he & Debbie were such good friends.
Oh wait, that's not a past, he still is!

 

[FryFunk]

Punk did that?

Not exclusively on its own but yes absolutely.

It legitimized the idea you could become a rockstar before you learned to play the instrument.

 

[Grinderman]

Not exclusively on its own but yes absolutely.

It legitimized the idea you could become a rockstar before you learned to play the instrument.

Wow. This begs so many more questions.

 

[FryFunk]

The idea of punk as being "poisonous to the music" is an elitist crap that misses the point horribly.

Punk means that you can do your thing yourself right now.

Except it's anti merit, anti respect etc.

There's no such thing as paying your dues in punk.

The idea someone should develop and earn credibility is being a "sell out".

The whole point is you get the arrogance of a arena rock bands without supplying a drop of talent.

 

[FryFunk]

Wow. This begs so many more questions.

Based on? it's actually quite simple.

By the 1970s rock was an established genre, if a 15 year old wanted to be part of the scene etc, he had to compete with people who grew up in the 60s.

The punk rock "ani establishment" narrative was very much directly a response to the fact that young people couldn't walk on stage tomorrow and become superstars.

Albums like Bat out of Hell/Rumors, were massive successes for a reason. It was rock music maturing, in a way that had long term stability.

 

[monkeyfinger]

Except it's anti merit, anti respect etc.

There's no such thing as paying your dues in punk.

The idea someone should develop and earn credibility is being a "sell out".

The whole point is you get the arrogance of a arena rock bands without supplying a drop of talent.

Yeah, they said the same thing about french impressionism.

 

[FryFunk]

Yeah, they said the same thing about french impressionism.

I have no idea what that is, never heard of it in fact. But you're kind of proving my point.

If you think it'd be great to live in a world where 1% of the population listens to rock music, and 0.1% are listening to music written and played during their lifetimes, cool that's great for you.

I mean we're at the point in conversation where we have to establish what dead even means?

I'd argue the reasonable position would be when the genre becomes inactive and the bulk of popular content is written by people who are dead. We can debate what the ratio points are but this is already established in things like linguistic.

Latin is a dead language, doesn't mean no one reads it latin studies of one kind or another is actually relatively common, dead just means nobody is speaking it.

EDIT:

My definition of dead is going for a walk on Friday night in a city of a half million people. I went all over down town looking for a band any band, any kind of live music. After asking every other bouncer etc, I kept getting pointed to the Karoke bar, which occasionally will have live music.

20 years ago, my home town of 6,500 people would have had a atleast 1 live act playing, likely multiple.

I get if you live in LA/New York/whatever you think otherwise. But when a ultra white/suburban town in arts crazy Canada doesn't have any rock playing you know the genre is dead.

 

[Grinderman]

Based on? it's actually quite simple.

By the 1970s rock was an established genre, if a 15 year old wanted to be part of the scene etc, he had to compete with people who grew up in the 60s.

The punk rock "ani establishment" narrative was very much directly a response to the fact that young people couldn't walk on stage tomorrow and become superstars.

Albums like Bat out of Hell/Rumors, were massive successes for a reason. It was rock music maturing, in a way that had long term stability.

Where to even begin...

Your testimony here has been compelling evidence that music and musicians ought to be licensed and regulated by a Ministry or Cultural Affairs to shut down these poisonous cretins who crowd out the the purer, more noble breed of musicians.

Although, at least one essential question remains in that regard too. Why couldn't the cream compete and rise to the top, ideally according to social Darwinism?

Well, at least you can yell at em if they--gutter trash--ever dare cross into your front yard, right?

 

[monkeyfinger]

I have no idea what that is, never heard of it in fact. But you're kind of proving my point.

If you think it'd be great to live in a world where 1% of the population listens to rock music, and 0.1% are listening to music written and played during their lifetimes, cool that's great for you.

I mean we're at the point in conversation where we have to establish what dead even means?

I'd argue the reasonable position would be when the genre becomes inactive and the bulk of popular content is written by people who are dead. We can debate what the ratio points are but this is already established in things like linguistic.

Latin is a dead language, doesn't mean no one reads it latin studies of one kind or another is actually relatively common, dead just means nobody is speaking it.

EDIT:

My definition of dead is going for a walk on Friday night in a city of a half million people. I went all over down town looking for a band any band, any kind of live music. After asking every other bouncer etc, I kept getting pointed to the Karoke bar, which occasionally will have live music.

20 years ago, my home town of 6,500 people would have had a atleast 1 live act playing, likely multiple.

I get if you live in LA/New York/whatever you think otherwise. But when a ultra white/suburban town in arts crazy Canada doesn't have any rock playing you know the genre is dead.

You've never heard of the french impressionist art movement? Matisse, Chagall, Monet, Renoir? These are some of the most famous painters in the history of art. This style was a complete break from the traditional arts of the french schools. They were told that they have no technique and their art was worthless. It's the same argument you are making about punk music. If you don't want to bring in a discussion about painting as a counter-argument, then how about the blues? None of the early delta-blues singers were experts in their instruments. Yet, somehow, they managed to completely change the face of music.

 

[FryFunk]

Where to even begin...
Your testimony here has been compelling evidence that music and musicians ought to be licensed and regulated by a Ministry or Cultural Affairs to shut down these poisonous cretins who crowd out the the purer, more noble breed of musicians.

I love this it's either lets promote sloppy off time out of tune music, or lets lock that down and make everything be played in 7/4 withe triple hand tapping.

Although, at least one essential question remains in that regard too. Why couldn't the cream compete and rise to the top, ideally according to social Darwinism?

Because Cockroaches can out produce stallions.

If we're talking about the natural evolution of music, you end up in a world where everything is written by some algorithm on Spotify. And we're getting there far faster than you might think.

Well, at least you can yell at em if they--gutter trash--ever dare cross into your front yard, right?

For that to happen, someone would have to be wanting to hire a punk band to play in their bar. Nowadays bar owners would rather let someone with an iphone take over their bar than a band.