What happened to Mesa Boogie cabinets?

[agedhorse]

Respectfully, I completely disagree with you.. I don't think you understand what enclosure efficiency is..

I wonder how I got this far in my career without as much knowledge as you?

 

[MattZilla]

I think I’ve out of it, I’m feeling dagea voux…

I think I’ve seen Ccarson26 tell AgedHorse he’s wrong about either amp & cab design in general or Mesa gear specifically a couple times through the years.

 

[FRoss6788]

I don't mean any disrespect, but clearly we are not talking about the same thing.. Even you were describing the customer wanting more rounded bottom end and some more punch without sacrificing the upper register.. If you are using the same size drivers and the enclosure is essentially the same size, then enclosure efficiency is what we are talking about.. I'm going to double-down, I disagree with you..

Clueless.

 

[agedhorse]

I don't mean any disrespect, but clearly we are not talking about the same thing.. Even you were describing the customer wanting more rounded bottom end and some more punch without sacrificing the upper register.. If you are using the same size drivers and the enclosure is essentially the same size, then enclosure efficiency is what we are talking about.. I'm going to double-down, I disagree with you..

Double down? It's painfully obvious that you do not understand the basic definition of enclosure sensitivity or efficiency.

Sensitivity and efficiency, both express the ratio of output audio power to the input of electrical power. Sensitivity takes into consideration the polar pattern of the output and is thus much more beneficial to audio applications. At very low frequencies, sensitivity and efficiency become almost the same.

Before you get yours self too deep into the hole you are digging, you might want to study up a bit:

Loudspeaker Efficiency and Sensitivity – FOH | Front of House Magazine

 

[FRoss6788]

Always the gentleman, Andy.

Thank you.

 

[USAJO]

To be fair Ccarson26 can you please tell us what your credentials are?

You clearly are convinced that you have the better understanding of this subject matter.

 

[sunbeast]

I don't mean any disrespect, but clearly we are not talking about the same thing.. Even you were describing the customer wanting more rounded bottom end and some more punch without sacrificing the upper register.. If you are using the same size drivers and the enclosure is essentially the same size, then enclosure efficiency is what we are talking about.. I'm going to double-down, I disagree with you..

You came in with the statement that "Powerhouse cabs are better than Subway cabs", ignoring that there were Powerhouse 2x12", 4x10", 1x15", etc cabs just like the Subway series. The Subway versions of these cabs outperform their Powerhouse equivalents on every non-subjective metric. Are you trying to state that equivalent Powerhouse cabs outperform Subway cabs due to larger enclosure sizes alone?

Of course comparing a 2x12" cab to a 4x12" cab isn't a fair comparison, but it isn't about enclosure size alone, its about doubling the amount of speakers (assuming they are in properly tuned boxes). The added efficiency is a result of doubling the amount of (identical) speakers and not size of enclosure, and as AgedHorse said- the efficiency of the Subway 4x12 is equivalent to that of 2 of the 2x12s (ie enclosure size isn't the important variable here). Obviously doubling the amount of drivers also adds efficiency. The modern Subway speakers as loaded into the enclosures that he has designed are more efficient than the speakers in the old Mesa Powerhouse cabs regardless of comparisons of enclosure size, so the Subway 2x15 will outperform the Powerhouse/Road-Ready 2x15s even as the Subway enclosure is smaller than those older cabs overall.

AgedHorse said this Subway 4x12 was considered as a consumer option but that there seemed to not be enough current demand to justify it. The Subways are light enough that modularity makes using multiple cabs alot less cumbersome than when a 2x12 could weigh 70+ lbs, so 2x 2x12" cabs will still outperform the Powerhouse 4x12" option and weigh nearly 40lbs less if one really needs that kind of speaker setup in this day and age (of course the tone of the Subway option won't be anything like the old Powerhouse one). I suspect the Subway 2x15" will fill that role well for most of us.

 

[agedhorse]

Yeah.. Thanks.. I've been in the audio space for 30 years.. As you can see.. I am well aware of the literature.. I have noticed you still have not told me what I am wrong about? I think that's interesting..

I already provided the information on efficiency/sensitivity.

Being in the “audio space” means many things. The more you say, the the less doubt we all have about your technical understanding.

 

[InkCow]

 

[sunbeast]

Yeah I'm not quite sure what you are getting at.. I am well aware of what driver efficiency is, and what enclosure efficiency is.. Those two are very different btw.. Comparing the PH and SW drivers is not an apples-to-apples comparison.. They are very different.. The neodymium magnet design is completely different.. That has nothing to do with what I was saying.. The enclosure of the Subway is the part I really don't like about the Subway series.. Half the mass means half the material.. And I'm sorry but making your cabinets light as possible is a silly design decision by Mesa, especially with bass guitar cabinets where enclosure structure and rigidity is quite important. The smaller size is annoyingly stupid.. If they wanted to make a light/travelers version of the cab, great. But sacrificing rigidity, mass and size of the cab was a bad decision. In addition, if you want a few different sizes of cabinets, you have a packaging and stacking problem with the odd-ball sizes.. They are not modular.. I think they missed the mark with the Subway Ultra-Lites.. You stated above that the enclosure is not the issue.. And I am saying, the enclosure is precisely the issue!! I am interested in the Mesa designer resurrecting the Powerhouse 412/810 cab and installing the SW drivers.. I'm kind of surprised they don't offer that cab now.. They were the flagship cabs 15 years ago.. I would buy two of them tomorrow if I could!!

“Enclosure efficiency” doesn’t mean anything without accounting for the driver used and the response you are going for. Popping those modern neo speakers into a Powerhouse cab that isn’t designed for them would be silly, but you could certainly do that yourself with a used Powerhouse if you really wanted to and quite possibly for less money than what Mesa would charge for a new unit.

Also, I’ve never heard a single complaint about the rigidity of a Subway cab, despite tons of users on Talkbass. Older Mesa cabs were notoriously overbuilt, consistently heavier than comparable designs for other manufacturers, which didn’t mean they sonically performed better than every lighter alternative when they were released. I certainly didn’t hear issues about rigidity of those cabs either, but I figure there’s a good reason I only ever see them used at an occasional heavy metal show these days. They were great reliable tour rigs back when there was much less sound reinforcement for bass in the average venue.

 

[MattZilla]

“I teach physics at a university (in Reno)”

the deja vu is blowing me away right now. I swear I’ve seen the last four pages nearly verbatim definitely at least once in the not too far past.

@Ccarson26 so are audiophiles’ cabs made of 50-ply 4.00” thick birch plus 2.00x4.00” mahogany braces?

this seems like a hilarious product idea.

 

[agedhorse]

Enclosures do not have efficiency. Speaker efficiency is defined as the acoustic energy out divided by the electrical energy in (or acoustic power out divided by electrical power in).

Without drivers in the cabinet, the equation always returns a result of zero. As you should now be able to see, the size of the cabinet isn’t part of the efficiency (or sensitivity) equation.

 

[DJ Bebop]

Respectfully, I completely disagree with you.. I don't think you understand what enclosure efficiency is..

"The ignorance is strong in this one"

 

[TBird1958]

Gentlemen, my apologies for the pause in the thread, please do carry on.

 

[gln1955]

Gentlemen, my apologies for the pause in the thread, please do carry on.

That's fine. I was laughing so hard I had to catch my breath.

 

[MattZilla]

Gentlemen, my apologies for the pause in the thread, please do carry on.

Oh man, I really wanted to see Carson’s links citing rationale or formulas for a solid cab.

 

[FRoss6788]

Oh man, I really wanted to see Carson’s links citing rationale or formulas for a solid cab.

The problem is, he has none.

 

[agedhorse]

It was just an unfortunate excursion into the mind of a blindly rabid audiophile.

 

[MattZilla]

Yeah, platinum carbon cables or whatever.

 

[MattZilla]

I really wanted to read whatever unhinged, $20 word filled, ad copy those companies have had some well read creative writer concoct to sell their special alloy speaker-to-cab fasteners & threaded inserts. Certainly the birch is from a certain forest in eastern France and is felled at a very specific time of year.