Why are there few 12" loaded bass cabs?

[Mesa Man]

Originally posted by B.Hendrix
Didn't SWR make a 2X12 a few years ago?

Yes SWR did make a model called BigFoot its a 2x12 with a tweeter. I have one and I chose it because i found that the 410s i tried out at the time didnt have the sweet low end, and the 15s didnt have the punchy mids. When I plugged in the 2x12 it was just 'that' sound for me. But If I wanted even more low end I guess that a single 15 would add some serious rumble to my sound, but I am satisfied with the sound of the BigFoot, it has also got the dial to adjust the level of the tweeter.. nice, since having it way up really CUTs, I use it at approx 25% with my active bass. Check out this cab if you find it.

 

[Brad Johnson]

Originally posted by brianrost
75% of choosing a speaker size is trendiness.

Fender used 10", 12" and 15" drivers in a variety of cabinet configurations over the years in Bassmans. Although Ampeg used 10" drivers in the SVT, they preferred 15" drivers in most of their other cabinets and until Hartke, SWR and Trace championed the 4-10" in the early 80s, the 10" speaker was out of vogue. For the last ten years, the 10" has dominated but now the 15" is making a comeback.

As for the 12", well despite an earlier post about a 1-12" cab not cutting it standalone at gigs, I've used them extensively for over ten years, including the exact Genz Benz cabinet that was mentioned. For me, a 1-12" is a nice box, much smaller than a 1-15" in overall size and weight but with a bit of EQ it can sound just as fat; put 400 watts behind one and it's VERY giggable. In fact, I often get comments when other people try the Genz (it gets used at a weekly blues jam) expecting some wimpy sound due to the tiny size.

My 12T didn't sound wimpy but it didn't cut it alone on gigs using a 5 string. It simply could not handle a low B at volumes lower than I'd easily get with a small 15. Just my experience.

I checked out two 12Ts being run with a Genz Benz amp, sounded nice at up to medium volume but broke up above that with a low B. YMMV

 

[brianrost]

Originally posted by Brad Johnson
My 12T didn't sound wimpy but it didn't cut it alone on gigs using a 5 string. It simply could not handle a low B at volumes lower than I'd easily get with a small 15. Just my experience.

That wouldn't surprise me. There is always a limit to what you can do with one speaker and with a smaller driver and smaller box, a 1-12" can't go as low as a similarly designed 1-15", that's physics. At some point pumping in more watts isn't the answer any more, you just need more cone area and a bigger box. I have used mine with a 5 string for some gigs and I haven't had problems with it on the B string I suspect I'm just not playing as loud.

One thing I find interesting is that people's perceptions of volume levels is VERY biased according to the sort of gigs they do. I actually have had jazz string bassists tell me they can't imagine needing more than 100 watts in an amp, but that's only because they never play really loud.

A jazz quartet opened for my blues band last Saturday where the bassist used an old Stadium brand amp from the 80s, a whopping 35 (!!!) watts into a 10" speaker...but the entire band was playing at a super low volume (I'll bet they thought they were cranked!!! ). I'm sure he was mystifed why I was using such a gigantic amp (my Baby Blue ).

 

[Gramatron]

personally ive never owned 10s, im just not keep on them. ive used 12's before and they were pretty responsive and had a decent sound. My personal prefference are 2 15" pa drivers. they handle real lows and highs really well and despite being 15" respond really well. i personally would like to see more 12's again. 10's just dont go low enough for me.

 

[TRU]

I have a Warwick W-CL, 1x12" 150W combo. It just kicks ass. It growls like a wild animal, lots of punch and low mids. Only the lowest lows start lacking when getting loud.

The first impressions from bandmates are always the same.
- are you going to use that? No way it is going to cut through.
- is all your sound coming from that small combo?!
- wow, it sounds great!

I'd like to build a 2x12" cab, just not sure what speakers to use. I think warwick uses some weird OEM speakers for W-CL.

 

[MuzikMan]

HOLY OLD THREAD BATMAN!!!!!!!!!!! BTW there isn't such a shortage of 12" bass cabs anymore, is there?

 

[IronSean7]

I happen to run one of the rare SWR bigfoot 2 cabs,, its loaded with BAG END woofs and can take 500 rms,, its a 4ohm cab so it CRANKS with my SWR (PRE FENDER) Bass 350 which is 350 watts @ 4ohms,,very loud and clear setup, you can get by with just this cab if youre looking to not lug a lot of stuff, it has great sound,, decent lows,, and good punchy mids,, also has the adj, tweeter. But when i reallly want to slam it out, i add my other cab,, i wanted 2 4ohm cabs so i could test SWRs ability to run at 2ohm, so i bought an ampeg BXT 115, i was surprised when i saw it was a 4ohm cab, so i snatched it up,, this setup complete is awsome,, 2 12s and a 15 running 450W,,, cant go wrong,,, if you can find a swr BIGFOOT 212 ,, buy it,,,, remember though,, they made a workingmans 212 also,, it looks similar , but not even close,, its an 8 ohm cab rated at around 250 rms, i could be wrong about that, but the bigfoot,, has bagend subs,4ohm, and its good for 500 RMS,, its a bull

 

[UncleBalsamic]

This poor old thread never gets any rest.

 

[RTL]

I happen to run one of the rare SWR bigfoot 2 cabs,, its loaded with BAG END woofs and can take 500 rms,, its a 4ohm cab so it CRANKS with my SWR (PRE FENDER) Bass 350 which is 350 watts @ 4ohms,,very loud and clear setup, you can get by with just this cab if youre looking to not lug a lot of stuff, it has great sound,, decent lows,, and good punchy mids,, also has the adj, tweeter. But when i reallly want to slam it out, i add my other cab,, i wanted 2 4ohm cabs so i could test SWRs ability to run at 2ohm, so i bought an ampeg BXT 115, i was surprised when i saw it was a 4ohm cab, so i snatched it up,, this setup complete is awsome,, 2 12s and a 15 running 450W,,, cant go wrong,,, if you can find a swr BIGFOOT 212 ,, buy it,,,, remember though,, they made a workingmans 212 also,, it looks similar , but not even close,, its an 8 ohm cab rated at around 250 rms, i could be wrong about that, but the bigfoot,, has bagend subs,4ohm, and its good for 500 RMS,, its a bull

Wow.

 

[bryan bailey]

It's not the speaker size, it's the cabinet it sits in.

 

[Bassgrinder77]

No real reason - mostly just history, trends, randomness and an interesting evolution.
In the early 60's 12" drivers were common in bass cabs though they were usually just beefed up (or not) guitar drivers.
Then Fender and Ampeg made 15" models which kind of made sense because bass is lower frequency than guitar. Then ported 15" (and 18") and folded horn 18" (and 15") cabs continued that lower frequency trend.
Around that same time (late 60's) Ampeg came out with the unported, sealed SVT cab with 8 specially designed 10" bass drivers. That cab was a RADICAL departure and it sounded really tight, smooth and punchy and had surprising low end.
By the early/mid 70's, aside from the SVT, most American bass cabs were 15" and 18" (12" cabs were basically gone). The British amps like Marshall, HIWATT, Orange and Sound City offered 4x12 bass cabs but then even they started offering 15" cabs.
It took a while but the SVT caught on gradually during the 70's and by the early 80's it almost OWNED rock bass. By this time, 12 cabs for bass were basically GONE.
Then, after a surprisingly long time (late 80's, early 90's), other companies (SWR, etc) sprang up offering sealed and ported 4x10 cabs, 4x10 cabs with HF horns and 8x10 cabs. The SVT started the serious 10" bass cab phenomenon.
The ported 15" and 18" cabs have continued but the folded horn "W" cabs have disappeared. I think the whole hi-fi notion has kind of evolved things into the 15/10/HF-horn paradigm and the 12" bass driver development has been somewhat neglected.
It's funny though. During the 70's when the amp companies were pushing 15" and 18", a surprising number of bass players (mostly British) used 12" guitar cabs like Entwistle and Squire (and other prog guys). Entwistle had a crazy mix of Sunn guitar, bass and PA cabs and Squire used 4x12 and then 6x12 Sunn guitar cabs. Steve Harris has used Marshall 4x12 cabs with EV drivers for a long time.

I think Brad is right.

But there might be other reasons too and I would be very interested wich these are!

I have an idea, though:
Why not 1x12"? Because a 1x15" has more low end and modern 15" drivers are rather fast anyway. The only niche for 1x12": small and light weight combos (every single inch and pound counts)

But why not 2x12"? I don't know! I guess this would be a great stand alone cab:
More speaker surface (volume!) than a single 1x15" or 2x10" cab, less weight than a 4x10" cab.
But maybe most bassists don't like a compromise in sound?

cheers,
Matthias

 

[spode master]

Wow this thread is like 9 years old, and someone just had to dig it up.

I love all the talk about the "quickness" of speakers.

 

[DukeLeJeune]

Thanks for the background info, Bassgrinder!

 

[uaudio]

This thread is like a bass playing time capsule.

I've played almost exclusively 12s for the last 4 years.

 

[vin*tone]

When thread started a decent amp cost 5 shillings.

 

[ticker]

I have some controversial views on speakers and cab designs. I always use custom built cabs, built by my father who is an expert carpenter and also a good bass player. We are currently planning a new stack with a square 4x12" cab as the top cab on top of an identicle sized 2x15" cab, a true monster rig! I might even go for two 4x12" cabs rather than the 2x15" as I love the classic 8x12 stacks. (I just happen to have two nice 15" speakers handy in the house!)

Whilst different speakers and cabs do have different characteristics we have found this to be much less significant than the effects of a good powerful EQ section on the sound. As long as the cab has a sensibly sized port then you can get away with most cab sizes/speaker configurations.

You might as well design and use a cab that meets your requirements for size and apearence, then with a decent power amp and EQ section the sound can be tuned to your exact requirements quite easily. You can easily get a bright percussive sound from a 15" speaker or a dull booming sound from a 10" speaker if you want to!

Most of my cabs to date have been designed to fit snuggly in the boot of whatever car I am driving at the time!

I personaly have always wanted a big full 8x12 stack, in the vein of a classic marshall stack. I don't like the way that the average Bass Cab has smaller dimensions than 4x12 guitar cabs. Even the modern 4x12 bass cabs are tall and narrow with staggered speakers rather than the traditional square arrangement. The last propper 4x12" cab for bass that I remember was the tweed covered Trace-Elliot V8 stack back in the 90's.

My New stacks cabs are going to have large square fronts based on the dimensions of my guitarists oversized HI-WATT cabs (a bit larger than a standard marshall 4x12"). The top cab will be a classic 4x12" (with an added HF Horn with attenuation control) and the bottom cab will be a 2x15" cab with the speakers mounted in opossite corners. The cabs will be deeper than a guitar cab and both will be ported. The 15" speakers will both be 400W emminence 15A Kappa Pro's and the four 12" Speakers will be 200W Celestian NEO's giving a 1600W stack.

I use a Rack Mounted setup with a versatile Boss Parametric EQ Unit, a valve compressor/gate and a 2500 Watt Power amp for plenty of head room, (Never used at more than 30% so far!). I might add a crossover and try running the rig in a bi-amped mode, but not sure yet.

The main reason for building this stack is just to fulfill my ambition of having a wall of speakers behind me and to look awesome next to my guitarists equaly big stack! You don't need a rig like this these days as modern amps and speakers are so good that a highly spec'd 2x10" cab could handle most gigs you could mention. But as I have said, with modern technology you can prety much use whatever suits you for size, portability and appearence and still make it work for you.

So to answer the origional question "why don't 12" cabs get used much these days?" In my opinion It's all down to fashion, trends and popularity and maybe the fact that traditional 4x12's are too big for the back of a standard car. If 15" cabs work, and 10" Cabs work, then 12" cabs will also work just as well, perhaps with the best characteristics of both. Just my opinion of course!

I even think a mini 4x8" or Even 8x8" stack would be a cool and viable rig if somebody makes suitable drivers to fit in the cabs.

 

[Tactician]

My class in Atlanta ended early today

Evidently when people come across someone who they think is a know-it-all (for whatever reason), the opportunity to prove them wrong is overwhelming. I get this with my wife a lot

From PBG: The fabled Marshall stack was actually SUPPOSED to be for bass. Look it up, the Marshall JTM45 is just a Bassman in British clothes.

Seems plain enough, the “fabled Marshall stack”, so Andy looked it up

From Andy’s link:Pete Townshend was instrumental in the next major step. His wish to drive harder, accelerated the development of the first 100 Watt heads. He also asked for a special 8x12 cabinet. The impracticality of this cabinet led to a "stacked" version i.e. one 4x12 on top of another.
The Marshall Stack was here!

So that’s why it happened (according to Marshall). “The Marshall stack was here” sounds like it wasn’t before Pete. YMMV

From PBG:Of course adding to Marshall's already enormous mystique isn't going to hurt their business, but the implication that Pete Townsend helped design the 4x12 cab is more ad hype than reality. The 4x12 was a fixture long before, it's just not many famous players thought of the idea of 'stacking' them. Look how the article you referenced is worded. Pete Townsend was instrumental in helping 'develop' the 'stack', not the 4x12 cab. Sorry Andy, you got this one wrong.

PBG vs. Marshall

From Andy: I got it wrong? The Marshall website has it wrong, you mean.

OK... but then:

PBG, whether or not 'I got it wrong' does not entitle you to take such as direct, offensive tone with people. This is why you tick people off, even when you are right.

Where did that come from?

And are you right here? It was you who said the Marshall stack was dveloped as a bass amp, not me. It's stacks were were talking here, not the 4x12....

Just a friendly word of warning....

PBG obviously has a different take on the Marshall statement. The problem is, Andy didn’t say it, he quoted it from the website. He can’t be wrong if he’s simply pointing to the source

Here was where things got hairy, at the baggage claim department…

Like I said I had time on my hands this afternoon

I won’t say who I think is right or wrong because I think it’s pretty obvious that there are a couple of problems here.

Ahhhhh.

I played in the warm up band during this phase of the The Who's history - so here's what actually happened. The only amps available were Vox AC30s and Fender Twins and the like (hugely expensive in the UK at that time). Blues was the big thing and playing it as lous as you could was what we all wnated. Jim Marshal heard this from so many poele he decided to copy a bassman amp circuit with UK avaiable components - the J45 was here. That needed a cab that was capable of dealing with all that volume and again made from what was available - the goodmans or Celestion 25watt speakers weas pretty much all there was - so you'll need 4 for the amp - the 4X12 was here. Put them together for a player like Pete Townsend and we all ordered them. But John Entwistle found that the 4x12 would fart out at full volume - so add another cab - 2x4x12 cabs. At first they were side by side. But putting one on the other looked awesome. And Pete has an ego - so he got a pair as well. Pretty mundane really. It just happened rather than anyone having a master plan. Bit later and Pete changed the Marshall for a big Fender 85 watt amp that sounded more chimy and clear. So he didn't always use Marshall that for sure. During this time John Entwistle moved from Rivioli Bass to the Rickenbacker - clearer, cut through better and with the round wound strings (everyone used tapes) he had his sound.

 

[Jimmy Riot]

I recently added a Peavey 412 cab to my rig in place of one of my 410 cabinets. I am completely thrilled with the new sound. This setup is allowing me to cut through just fine, and I can feel the earth move again. I was a diehard 10" guy for many years, but I am very glad I tried the 12's.

I too used a Peavey 4x12 bottom cab for bass and remember it being particularly great. The cab had the aluminum vertical borders from the '80s. Now 20yrs later I'm looking for an Ampeg V4 4x12 cab to put some Eminence Basslites or 2512's (a-la John_K style) to go with my V4 head.

I love my Ampeg V4 through the 8x10 and I'm hoping to love it as much through a pimped-out V4 4x12 cab. P.S. this is my first post anywhere of any kind.

 

[Matt Dean]

This thread is like a bass playing time capsule.

I've played almost exclusively 12s for the last 4 years.

+1

 

[Bluwaterbob]

Awesome! I just found this thread. Please allow me to chime in.

I am, by no means, a great bass player, just really enjoy it. I've played all differnt types since about '79. 1x15, 1x15 w/2x10 bi-amp, peavey TNT 100, EMC300 with a 1x18, 2x10 with peavy head, on and on. Then about 8 years ago, my son had advanced beyond my abilities and I had all but quit playing. He played both Bass and guitar and wanted something he could play BOTH out of . So, I built a rack setup with a Peavey 50/50 power unit, peavey ProBass 1000, digitech GSP21 Legend and a Marshall 9000 preamp. Then, built a 4x12 cab and filled it with MCM aluminum cones. ..... ok, when y'all get done laughin...........
He played through it till about a year ago. I picked up playing at the church and now I'm using it to play my Schecter Studio-5 thru... MANY complements and "man, how do you get that sound from a guitar cabinet" questions !!!! I've even run thru the GSP21 a time or two... Never been much of a follower. hmmm guess that's just the Architect mindset though.
Y'all think about it