Why do SHORT SCALE bass string sets have LIGHTER GAUGE than their long scale version?

[LoTone]

I have a few short scale basses. I prefer a lighter gauge of strings because, by default, short scale basses have a warmer tone than long scale basses. If I were to put heavy gauge strings, it might lead to my short scale basses having poor note definition. As well, I love flatwound strings on long scales but I prefer roundwound or, my favorite, pressurewounds on short scale basses to improve note definition.

 

[brianrost]

To achieve the same pitch a shorter string length needs to have a lower string tension. Smaller strings are required to keep this tension from being too floppy.

I once owned a Supro "Pocket Bass" with a 25" scale. Noone made strings that short any more, so I used strings meant for a 30" scale. The tension was so low that just fretting the notes could make them go out of tune. I guess I should have looked for a very light gauge set.

 

[iiipopes]

Three things will affect the pitch of a string:

1. Length - longer = lower pitch
2. Tension - looser = lower pitch
3. Diameter - larger = lower pitch

It is, then, a mater of balancing the three. How the strings "feel" is affected most by Tension.
The material and construction of the string do play a part in this, but not as much as the basic 3 physical properties.

Um, if I may clarify:
1) length: longer scale length at the same tension and mass of string results in lower pitch
2) tension: less tension at the same scale length and mass of string results in lower pitch
3) not diameter - mass: if the mass is larger at the same scale length and tension, then this results in lower pitch. Due to all the different ways strings are constructed (round wounds, flats, hex cores, round cores, some with more than one winding, the alloy used to make the string) you can't make a generalization about diameter, as two strings with the same overall diameter may have vastly different mass, and therefore tension at a given scale length and pitch. Conversely, strings of different diameter may have the same or similar mass and therefore the same tension at a given scale length. It's all about mass, not diameter.

The math formulas for this are in both the D'Addario and the GHS string guides.

 

[Boneless]

Intuition would lead you to thinking that you need a thicker string to get a similar end result, because you need to compensate for the lower tension caused by the short scale.

In practice, the thicker the string in relation to the scale, the less sustain, note definition and "purity" (just think, playing higher up on the fretboard yields a darker, less articulate tone compared to the first few frets, which can often be used to your advantage by the way; and this gets more pronounced with thicker strings). If increasing the string diameter were all that it's needed, you could get a guitar scale to sound like a bass, just with very thick strings. In practice, it doesn't work that way.

Why do you need string tension in the first place? It has more to do with dynamic (transient) response and feel than with tone per se. Why do heavy genre players generally favour thicker strings? Heavier genres may have faster, denser lines, and may benefit from more overtones, while not having, generally, that much use for sustain. If you're going to pound that E string with 8th or 16th notes at high tempos, you want a string that is nice and stiff and responds with lots of attack and overtones at the transient.

Also, have a look at what guitar players, especially acoustic guitar players do. For strumming, thicker strings are usually favoured because they give brighter, richer sound. But for lots of fingerpicking and solo playing people usually prefer light gauges, and not only for the reduced tension (feel) but also for the increased sustain and "purer" tone (sound).

In my dabblings, I have found that thinner strings actually sound best for warmth and roundness on bass, provide better sustain, and on a short-scale especially, fewer bad overtones and more clarity. In general, if you have a bass with bad overtones at the transient (or if you have a style that favours slower, more melodic lines and you wish for smoother sound) try reducing string thickness. For the "modern vintage" styles that are quite popular nowadays, don't just go for .45-.105s. Try .40-.100s, or even a thinner E string. Or mix and match (thicker treble strings and thinner bass strings). My Danelectro long scale really came to life with Rotosound Funkmaster .30-.95s (even though .35-.95s are a better choice, because the treble strings on the Funkmaster set are just a bit too soft).

 

[Gravedigger Dav]

Um, if I may clarify:
1) length: longer scale length at the same tension and mass of string results in lower pitch
2) tension: less tension at the same scale length and mass of string results in lower pitch
3) not diameter - mass: if the mass is larger at the same scale length and tension, then this results in lower pitch. Due to all the different ways strings are constructed (round wounds, flats, hex cores, round cores, some with more than one winding, the alloy used to make the string) you can't make a generalization about diameter, as two strings with the same overall diameter may have vastly different mass, and therefore tension at a given scale length and pitch. Conversely, strings of different diameter may have the same or similar mass and therefore the same tension at a given scale length. It's all about mass, not diameter.

The math formulas for this are in both the D'Addario and the GHS string guides.

Pretty sure I covered all that in my post.

 

[fhm555]

D’addario have 3 short scale sets in the XL nickel series. 40-95, 45-100 and 50-105. So you’re pretty much playing with their short scale Medium gauge set with just slightly thinner D and G. Your E string is flexible enough to turn around the pole.

I already had the set I used so they went on. Back in the 90’s I used Blue Steel and liked them a lot, but I was getting a two for one deal on them. When that ended I tried the 34” scale XL’s and really liked them, and with one exception I’ve used them on every bass i’ve owned since. If they last a while on my Mustang I’ll probably keep using them.

 

[iiipopes]

Pretty sure I covered all that in my post.

Yes, but with due respect, it was incomplete in that it did not set forth the relationship of all three aspects to each other.

 

[Tim Skaggs]

The quandary with short scale basses is they have less content of overtones in their sound than long scal basses and then using heavy strings to offset the low tension also somewhat reduces overtones even more. Setting up a short scale bass with the lightest gauge, most flexible string available, that would still be playable, would get a more defined tone than a heavier gauge string that provides a higher tension feel.

Or, a player can always go the thump route and just play heavy, stiff, flat wounds and do Motown, Reggae, & the like….

 

[iiipopes]

The quandary with short scale basses is they have less content of overtones in their sound than long scale basses and then using heavy strings to offset the low tension also somewhat reduces overtones even more. Setting up a short scale bass with the lightest gauge, most flexible string available, that would still be playable, would get a more defined tone than a heavier gauge string that provides a higher tension feel.

Or, a player can always go the thump route and just play heavy, stiff, flat wounds and do Motown, Reggae, & the like….

The most flexible set available with stability and consistency and good overall tone with longetivity: GHS Balanced Nickels. God's gift to short scale bass players. Those who have read my posts in other short scale threads know everything about why I post this. This is the set I keep on my short scale travel bass.

OTOH, La Bella 760FL-S are the best flats for short scale, since they do retain some tone and flexibility, although, yes, the E string can go thumpy over time.

 

[cyberprimate]

La Bella 760FL-S are the best flats for short scale, since they do retain some tone and flexibility, although, yes, the E string can go thumpy over time.

The Pyramid Gold flats were originally designed for short scale (the Höfner violin bass). Have tou tried them?

 

[iiipopes]

The Pyramid Gold flats were originally designed for short scale (the Höfner violin bass). Have tou tried them?

If I played a Beatle Bass, I would use them. I don't like their tone on anything else.

 

[cyberprimate]

If I played a Beatle Bass, I would use them. I don't like their tone on anything else.

I notice that La Bella offers different gauges for the Höfner bass than for other short scale basses, despite the fact that the beatle bass is also 30".

Höfner : light 39-56 & std 50-100
non-beatle 30" : light 43-104 & std 45-105

 

[Gravedigger Dav]

Yes, but with due respect, it was incomplete in that it did not set forth the relationship of all three aspects to each other.

True.

 

[TomB]

I notice that La Bella offers different gauges for the Höfner bass than for other short scale basses, despite the fact that the beatle bass is also 30".

Höfner : light 39-56 & std 50-100
non-beatle 30" : light 43-104 & std 45-105

I play Dunlops because mine are short-scale 5’s (B-strings are a whole other topic) but I also think the “light” Labellas (FL) are fantastic on a short scale 4. I couldn’t find the short scale FL’s for sale though the last time I looked, only the FS. Maybe supplies are re-normalizing ??

 

[IamGroot]

At constant string tension and frequency, the string diameter is inversely proportional to the scale length.

--------------------------------------------------
M = π* (0.5 * d)^2 * ρ

M = mass-per-unit-of-length
d = diameter of string
ρ = density of string material

These three relations result in a formula, which is called Mersenne’s Law:

F = 1/2L * √T * 1/√(π * (0.5 * d)^2 * ρ)

F = Frequency
L = String length

Now we also know how to calculate the string tension:

T = 4 * F^2 * L^2 * π * (0.5*d)^2 * ρ

and the diameter:

d = 1/L * √T * 1/F * 1/√(π * ρ)

 

[iiipopes]

I notice that La Bella offers different gauges for the Höfner bass than for other short scale basses, despite the fact that the beatle bass is also 30".

Höfner : light 39-56 & std 50-100
non-beatle 30" : light 43-104 & std 45-105

Remember that due to the after length between the bridge saddle and the string anchor, not all short scale strings work on all short scale basses. Other than sets that are marketed for the specific instrument, such as La Bella's Beatle Bass and Mustang string-through sets, let us all repeat the mantra:
1) measure from the ball anchor to the tuner side of the nut;
2) measure from the ball anchor to the middle of the tuner post of the lowest string;
3) purchase a set of strings with a speaking length, or winding length, that is between these two measurements.

 

[bobyoung53]

They either should be the same or heavier, no?

Yes, I will usually put .105 sets on short scale basses. A bigger gauge tightens them up. The smaller the string and shorter the scale the floppier the string. I like Rotosound Swing bass and bought some of their short scale strings for an EB-3, they were so small they never stopped stretching, I think they had a .095 E string.
I ended up buying DR Sunbeams in the .105 scale for it, they feel and sound good. Another good string for a SS bass is the .105 La Bella DTB SS set.

 

[bobyoung53]

At constant string tension and frequency, the string diameter is inversely proportional to the scale length.

--------------------------------------------------
M = π* (0.5 * d)^2 * ρ

M = mass-per-unit-of-length
d = diameter of string
ρ = density of string material

These three relations result in a formula, which is called Mersenne’s Law:

F = 1/2L * √T * 1/√(π * (0.5 * d)^2 * ρ)

F = Frequency
L = String length

Now we also know how to calculate the string tension:

T = 4 * F^2 * L^2 * π * (0.5*d)^2 * ρ

and the diameter:

d = 1/L * √T * 1/F * 1/√(π * ρ)

I'm glad you cleared that right up for us all.

 

[bobyoung53]

I notice that La Bella offers different gauges for the Höfner bass than for other short scale basses, despite the fact that the beatle bass is also 30".

Höfner : light 39-56 & std 50-100
non-beatle 30" : light 43-104 & std 45-105

They also offer 39-96 and 49-109, nope, no more 39-96, discontinued, those are strings Jack Bruce used on his EB-3, too loose for me.

 

[Cal03]

At constant string tension and frequency, the string diameter is inversely proportional to the scale length.

--------------------------------------------------
M = π* (0.5 * d)^2 * ρ

M = mass-per-unit-of-length
d = diameter of string
ρ = density of string material

These three relations result in a formula, which is called Mersenne’s Law:

F = 1/2L * √T * 1/√(π * (0.5 * d)^2 * ρ)

F = Frequency
L = String length

Now we also know how to calculate the string tension:

T = 4 * F^2 * L^2 * π * (0.5*d)^2 * ρ

and the diameter:

d = 1/L * √T * 1/F * 1/√(π * ρ)

This is why we learned math in school!