Why is the 1000 ASP ICE module not more popular?

[bucephylus]

Agree these possibly subjective terms are at the very least worth discussing, and possibly confusing and even misleading.

Slam to me means being clean and tight at the low end such that there is a solidity to the base of the tone like a sledge hammer hitting a big granite boulder, and that solidity persists at higher volumes. The SVT has it. I know it when I hear it. Sure, I wish there was a better description.

Punch to me is more related to how well the bass tone sits clearly in a busy mix, without requiring overbearing volume everywhere else.

Maybe that doesn't help. But, what are better ways to discuss the tone?

 

[J.Wolf]

the problem is that even if we were to have universal designations for terms like Slam and Punch corresponding to specific frequency ranges, people will still assign their own definitions regardless of existing frequency definitions because people are looking to language to convey what they're perceiving in their sensory systems. People use these terms because they convey what is otherwise very hard to put into words. Typically when people say "punch" even if the personal definitions are not all the same, they're usually in the same ballpark.

I've never had a problem using the word slam and having someone wildly misinterpret it. Maybe everyone's a little off on our precise definitions, but if you zoom out, it becomes splitting hairs pretty quick.

Plus, can you really fault humans for trying to classify and describe aspects that are elusive by nature? I've heard: gut punch, chest punch, nuts punch (somewhat less pleasant), and I would fully expect 90% of bass players to lump all that into "punch".

I guess my point is, I see more value in having these definitions as a tool to convey what we're hearing than any potential drawbacks or hindrances the verbiage causes. But I'm also not a scientist, so theres that.

 

[BurningSkies]

Back to the big power amps. I choose an amp to take any question of headroom out of the equation. You've got 'headroom' bottlenecks in a few places in your signal chain, so the more places you can eliminate them, the more freedom you have tonally and volume wise.

 

[J.Wolf]

If you're already in a 19" rack format, that is a no brainer, based on cost/watt ratio of rack amps these days. I mean you can get a used CA9 for like 3-400 bucks, which is kind of insane given the performance.

 

[agedhorse]

Back to the big power amps. I choose an amp to take any question of headroom out of the equation. You've got 'headroom' bottlenecks in a few places in your signal chain, so the more places you can eliminate them, the more freedom you have tonally and volume wise.

IME, one of the biggest headroom bottlenecks is a blown speaker. Headroom isn't headroom if it's actually used. Accidents happen, lack of good judgement happens, simply making a mistake happens and I see the results, which tend to be quicker and more catastrophic with very large amps.

You might be fine, but the same may not apply to others.

[edit for typo]

 

[N. Kentucky Bass]

IME, one of the biggest geadroom bottlenecks is a blown speaker. Headroom isn't headroom if it's actually used. Accidents happen, lack of good judgement happens, simply making a mistake happens and I see the results, which tend to be quicker and more catastrophic with very large amps.

You might be fine, but the same may not apply to others.

Yeah, that happened to me. I was playing a gig with a "nearful" 12/6 and 15/6 stack and a QSC PLX 3602 (not bridged). Both 8ohm cabs but different maximum wattage capacity. The 12 inch driver blew when I goosed volume and had a fuzz box on strong. Cabinet mismatch, of course. An innocent, expensive mistake.

 

[J.Wolf]

Yeah its not unlike driving a supercar in that way. Bigger risk, bigger reward.

And..... most normal people would kill themselves behind the wheel of a 700hp car. Just like most bassists who don't think critically would put 2000w through a 210 and wonder why they blew it up.

 

[Passinwind]

That's because the people you are playing to at those wineries are not SLAMing down the hard stuff. No need. In that situation, you need "presence" not slam.

Heh, good point. But I actually retired from the winery circuit a few years ago. And recently I was playing an open mike out in the boonies at this rather bizarre restaurant that is equal parts redneck and Seattle Pan-Asian. Full up with diners, and right before I went on the young female Korean-American manager came over and asked me specifically if I'd play an Acid Metal set. And me with my hippie sandwich coffee table single cut 5 string. Drums were broken, food was left on the table in favor of headbanging -- just another day at the office...

 

[bucephylus]

IME, one of the biggest geadroom bottlenecks is a blown speaker. Headroom isn't headroom if it's actually used. Accidents happen, lack of good judgement happens, simply making a mistake happens and I see the results, which tend to be quicker and more catastrophic with very large amps.

You might be fine, but the same may not apply to others.

I played with a Drummer at one point who drove a '52 GMC pickup he had tricked out to the 9's. He of course had an overly large engine in it, around a 455 cu in type. He ended up selling it because he had to be pretty careful with all that power, and blew out a couple of rear ends.

Got to know your limitations. I also use big power amps at times, but am pretty careful when I do.

 

[J.Wolf]

the real danger (or one of several) is with cabs that are known to "need a lot of power to open up". That sends a tricky message to users that they need to dump more watts in than similar looking cabs require, but not so much as to blow them up. Also, I think people assume that cabs that require more power than others will produce more volume, which is not always the case. Thats a recipe for blown/creased drivers.

Luckily the solution is to know how gear works, and have reasonable expectations. But this probably describes 80% of talkbass and 30% of bass players.

 

[Mike Arnopol]

Fellow TB'er once described in a decidedly non-technical way---pants flapping bass. A tactile way of describing "slam".

 

[Passinwind]

Fellow TB'er once described in a decidedly non-technical way---pants flapping bass. A tactile way of describing "slam".

Much better IMHO. And no, I don't think everyone likes or wants that, by a long shot.

 

[agedhorse]

I played with a Drummer at one point who drove a '52 GMC pickup he had tricked out to the 9's. He of course had an overly large engine in it, around a 455 cu in type. He ended up selling it because he had to be pretty careful with all that power, and blew out a couple of rear ends.

Got to know your limitations. I also use big power amps at times, but am pretty careful when I do.

I have a '53 GMC long bed 3/4 ton... the last thing I would do is put that much power in it. My biggest concerns would not be going fast but being able to keep it on the road and stopping it. Stopping is not an under-rated quality.

 

[seamonkey]

the real danger (or one of several) is with cabs that are known to "need a lot of power to open up". That sends a tricky message to users that they need to dump more watts in than similar looking cabs require, but not so much as to blow them up. Also, I think people assume that cabs that require more power than others will produce more volume, which is not always the case. Thats a recipe for blown/creased drivers.

Luckily the solution is to know how gear works, and have reasonable expectations. But this probably describes 80% of talkbass and 30% of bass players.

I've read and heard some makers claiming they need certain power to "open up"

But - It's more likely the other way around
Measuring at [email protected], 1w
Versus [email protected], 100w

If there measured differences, There may be bass power compression in the driver/cabinet design with 28.3v 100w. So it would measure less sensitive and close down at higher power.

Everybody's cab can handle 100w easy. And it may be easier to place a measuring mic at 10m

I think "bass compression" is missed quite often around here. Especially with high power amplifiers that are everywhere these days. Cabinets rated 200w probably don't get much louder after 100w

 

[BadExample]

I have a '53 GMC long bed 3/4 ton... the last thing I would do is put that much power in it. My biggest concerns would not be going fast but being able to keep it on the road and stopping it. Stopping is not an under-rated quality.

My Willys jeep with Buick 231 was a death trap when I bought it. Those brakes weren't enought for a 75 HP stock 4 cyl. Steering rod straight to the frame mounted gearbox and bad seatbelts.

 

[agedhorse]

I've read and heard some makers claiming they need certain power to "open up"

But - It's more likely the other way around
Measuring at [email protected], 1w
Versus [email protected], 100w

If there measured differences, There may be bass power compression in the driver/cabinet design with 28.3v 100w. So it would measure less sensitive and close down at higher power.

Everybody's cab can handle 100w easy. And it may be easier to place a measuring mic at 10m

I think "bass compression" is missed quite often around here. Especially with high power amplifiers that are everywhere these days. Cabinets rated 200w probably don't get much louder after 100w

I think this is the case for some cabinets but not for all cabinets. Each designer (and each transducer design) trades off parameters in order to gain in other areas. A good rule of thumb is that power compression becomes significant around the RMS or thermal rating of the cabinet though this can be skewed a bit by careful magnetic circuit design.

 

[J.Wolf]

There are a few manufacturers I'm thinking of whose cabinets "need more wattage to open up", and its almost always the case that they're intentionally trading efficiency to reach a desired tone goal. I don't follow all the technical data mentioned here, but from a player/marketer perspective, the real bummer is that powering these cabs with what "should" be enough power results in lackluster impressions of the cab, as they are not living up their potential. So as a result, some people will never get a fair shake with the gear, because they either don't have, or are not prepared to use, sufficient power. As a marketer, this would make me cringe.

 

[N. Kentucky Bass]

ICE 1000 = prepared for anything.

 

[3rdcurve]

I have a '53 GMC long bed 3/4 ton... the last thing I would do is put that much power in it. My biggest concerns would not be going fast but being able to keep it on the road and stopping it. Stopping is not an under-rated quality.

To each their own. I have a 72 Dodge dart (their smallest production car that year) with a healthy 440 (biggest production engine). Granted, I did upgrade the brakes and suspension to match, but I don't have to wring the bejesus out of it to go fast, loads of torque right off idle. Same applies with a big amp, lots of reserve left....but it will get you into trouble if you don't watch it.

 

[agedhorse]

To each their own. I have a 72 Dodge dart (their smallest production car that year) with a healthy 440 (biggest production engine). Granted, I did upgrade the brakes and suspension to match, but I don't have to wring the bejesus out of it to go fast, loads of torque right off idle. Same applies with a big amp, lots of reserve left....but it will get you into trouble if you don't watch it.

I see the results of players who do get in trouble. Often.