4x10 vs. 1x15 Cabs

[bertthebassist]

Call me naive, but isn't the air coming from my cabinet and flapping my pants leg a volume of air?
Doesn't the excursion of the speaker (movement in and out) also effect all of this?

 

[DigitalMan]

When 40 percent of the U.S. population apparently believes that the earth is less than 10,000 years old (recent Gallup poll), gullibility is definitely something that can be exploited for great profit. I certainly have a strong negative opinion about the thought processes of at least 40 percent of the population, then.

My point is definitely not about whether or not people are gullible. My point is that if someone has expressed a personal observation that calling their specific observation (or observations of other people who happen to be just like it) a product of gullibility is out of bounds. Unless of course they think the planet is less than 10,000 years old, In which case they are an idiot. Sadly a brainwashed idiot, but an idiot nonetheless.

In the case we're discussing there are both apples-to-apples and apples-to-oranges scenarios whereby people can make observations. If you play the same bass, same head through different cabs that are same manufacturer and series you will likely notice patterns that you would not observe when playing same bass, same head through different cabs of different manufacturers or different series from same manufacturer. This is as likely an explanation of how someone observes differences between driver sizes as any other. It's a narrow but likely case that someone will make these kinds of comparisons based upon how some people might choose gear (label, price, and proximity on the music store floor).

There is a great exhibit at the Exploratorium with massive wooden sticks that demonstrates when all other things are equal, that length in fact is the determinate factor of resonant frequency - longer = lower. But if you change the materials, the tension, thickness, shape, excursion, etc. then length is not. Just like playing an open E then fretting the 1st fret. If nothing else changes then length determines frequency. However, if you play an open E, then detune to D, then fret the first fret, length no longer is the significant factor.

 

[Febs]

if you have a theroy on something, do some research, post the facts that support it and then show your work. what you believe and think are often different than what is....

Irony alert.

 

[carl h.]

Just like playing an open E then fretting the 1st fret. If nothing else changes then length determines frequency. However, if you play an open E, then detune to D, then fret the first fret, length no longer is the significant factor.

Why do we have 4 string all the same length on most basses?

 

[Munjibunga]

My point is definitely not about whether or not people are gullible. My point is that if someone has expressed a personal observation that calling their specific observation (or observations of other people who happen to be just like it) a product of gullibility is out of bounds. ...

I disagree. Bringing it back into the realm of audio - if, for instance, someone asserts that the Victor Wooten Signature power cable produces a better sound from their rig than an eight-dollar Hosa IEC cable, I think it's well within bounds to call their specific observation the product of gullibility.

 

[DigitalMan]

I disagree. Bringing it back into the realm of audio - if, for instance, someone asserts that the Victor Wooten Signature power cable produces a better sound from their rig than an eight-dollar Hosa IEC cable, I think it's well within bounds to call their specific observation the product of gullibility.

Fair point. I think that's a far more cut and dry case however. It's clear to everyone that a bunch of different cabs sound different. How people recognize patterns in those differences is a lot less cut and dry strictly in terms of gullibility as compared to your cable example.

 

[DigitalMan]

Why do we have 4 string all the same length on most basses?

I'm not sure I understand your point - but I'm pretty sure you don't understand mine. Significant factor meaning that in the second example that the change of tension had greater impact on the frequency (lower by two steps) than the fretting did (higher by one step).

** Edit - bringing that back to the topic at hand. When speakers are designed exactly alike (insomuch as is practical) then size is has the potential to be the most significant factor when it comes to frequency response. However, when you start to use different design elements such as shape or materials then size is potentially no longer the most important factor.

 

[/\/\3phist0]

Reading material. http://www.billfitzmaurice.com cab design and driver design have more influence than driver size

 

[DigitalMan]

Reading material. http://www.billfitzmaurice.com cab design and driver design have more influence than driver size

We are violently agreeing. When cab and driver design are as similar as possible then driver size becomes a more prominent factor.

 

[carl h.]

Digital man, re-read the portion of your post I quoted. I'm not entirely certain you understand what you understand.

 

[DigitalMan]

Digital man, re-read the portion of your post I quoted. I'm not entirely certain you understand what you understand.

I re-read. I'm still missing it. Sorry - not being intentionally obtuse.

My example was to show that sometimes length matters and sometimes it doesn't.

Why we have similar scale lengths is because we're tuning to achieve (apart from de-tuners) the same end resultant frequencies, using a common range of string thicknesses with both tension and spacing suitable to most players hands.

Edit -- and a Kala Ubass is a great example of a scenario where materials are far more influential on the outcome than length.

PS - And I'm pretty certain I understand what I understand. Unless I'm Donald Rumsfeld.

 

[u84six]

Depending on where you play, the cab ends up being just a stage monitor anyway because most of the time the crowd is hearing you through the pa. If I don't go through the pa, you can still hear me, but just sounds far away and unbalanced with the rest of the band. I've played with all speaker configs and it really doesn't make a difference. The band will definitely hear your cab, but the audience is mostly hearing the pa. So it's generally best you invest in your outboard sound like a nice preamp and pick a decent cab that makes a good monitor. Rehearsal is a different situation; we're in just a basement. I actually use only 150 watts and 1x12 and don't really care all that much about my sound. What I care about is what the audience hears at my gigs.

 

[David Jayne]

hmm, trace elliot, ampeg, swr and eden must be lying then....read their specs. .

Pretty sure those specs apply to the whole cab, tweeter included.

 

[David Jayne]

a 1x15 produces approximately the same air volume as a 4 x 10
I don't know why so many of you compare area of the opening
The depth (height) of the speaker is as important as the diameter

Why would you think that? It's not relevant at all. Area and excursion are, among the obvious. But certainly not the volume of the cone. A speaker doesn't work like a shovel, it works like a piston.

 

[iualum]

hmm, trace elliot, ampeg, swr and eden must be lying then....read their specs. they made em up......whole point i was getting at.....if you have a theroy on something, do some research, post the facts that support it and then show your work. what you believe and think are often different than what is....

Davy, sorry, but you just have no idea what you're talking about. It's the high frequency drivers/tweeters that get the frequency response to those levels, not the 10" drivers. Go read some driver specs. I suspect you've never read any. Ever. Do a little research. Not a lot. Just a little. O.K.?

Here, find one, just one non-coaxial driver that goes to 15kHz. http://www.usspeaker.com/10.htm

 

[KevInDaBassment]

Yes, in fact your whole point is about the gullibility of others. Listening with your eyes and falling for marketing both convey a strong negative opinion about the thought processes of other people. You can make your reframed point above without mentioning either of those things.

Ok, sign me up for one of those $199 power cables and a jar of rocks to put in the corner for $500 to combat comb filtering while I record

 

[iualum]

Irony alert.

 

[catgut]

On a sharing note I have been playing 2x15's and digging it lately for reasons not having anything to do with this education beat down of a thread. You all are tough. But then after 4 pages I'd be a bit more 'forceful' also.

 

[iualum]

a 1x15 produces approximately the same air volume as a 4 x 10
I don't know why so many of you compare area of the opening
The depth (height) of the speaker is as important as the diameter
Calculation for volume of a cone: V= (pi r squared x h)/ 3
pi = 3.14
r= radius
h = height (depth of speaker)
https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=what is the volume of a cone

the 410 will be a little louder than a 115, but not nearly twice as loud

Well, actually, no. Given similar Xmaxes, a 115 displaces roughly the same cubic centimeters/inches (take your pick) as a 210. Xmax must be plugged into the equation. If it isn't, no air movement discussion can be valid.

 

[/\/\3phist0]

Wow I'm surprised. Men arguing that bigger is better. Never saw that coming.