4x10 vs. 1x15 Cabs

[iualum]

Well a 15 is bigger than a ten and there is the 'saying size matters... '

I don't use my sealed Marshall cab with an ev 15 much these days but I do know that in the right room it can certainly bring out the best in a p bass....

I accept it does come down to cab design and specs , but I just can't get into the 4 x 10 sound ... But that's just me ...

Mind you I have also heard some crappy 15's along the way too. ... Lol

Rossa

There are cabs we like & there are cabs we don't. But there is no 210, 410, 112, 212, 412, 115, 215, or any other configuration, "sound." The "sound" of each/every cab is, as you rightly cite, dependent upon the specific drivers employed (& their specs) & the box that's designed/built around them. There are similarities among cabs of the same configuration, yes, but there are striking dissimilarities among other boxes of the same configuration.

 

[Jbassrockboy]

Fair comment and agreed

My point on 4 x 10 was not to condemn them... It's just my limited experience and subsequent preferences ....

Another point is the purpose of using a cab

If the bass is going foh then it's more of a personal thing as to what backline sound you want

Or if it's no foh and just the amp and cab filling the room then it's different again and likewise if it's a di to a console in a recording situation with or without a miked cab

Rossa

 

[tbz]

Fair comment and agreed

My point on 4 x 10 was not to condemn them... It's just my limited experience and subsequent preferences......

Any particular reason why you've chosen to support and comment on, what you know/have instead of trying alternatives?

Another point is the purpose of using a cab

If the bass is going foh then it's more of a personal thing as to what backline sound you want

Well, no, the point the technical folks are trying to make is that cab sound is actually really not determine by speaker size. Cab sound is a combination of the specific speakers used, the materials used for the cab, and the physical design of the cab.

As Satori mentioned an open backed 15" guitar cab will have less low end than a Phil Jones 4x8.

Speaker size is essential meaningless, you really can't make snap decisions like "this has more bass" off of speaker size.

 

[slade]

Blah blah blah...

This is like saying a sports broadcasters opinion isn't valid about a football game because he can't run the 40 as fast as a running back. Ability =/= technical knowledge.

Sounds like I hit a nerve. I never said people's opinion's aren't valid, I said that maybe they're taking themselves a bit too seriously. And yes, when I listen to a guy consistently post about his superior gear, talk about how it will blow every other manufacturers gear out of the water, all of the technical ins and outs of speaker and box technology, argue back and forth with everyone about how much better his box is, I would expect him to at least be able to play, and not sound horrible when doing so. When I hear/see that said guy plays about as well as my 7 year old I tend to put his future comments in the "uh, sure buddy" box. But then again, my favorite commentators in sports are typically ex pros, like George Foreman, John Elway, etc, not Bob Costas. Sounds like you're after a scientists insights, I'm after a musicians. I like bouncing ideas and concepts with real players in the real world, which there are a ton of here. There are also a few loud guys here who I question whether they've even played a real stage, ever been in a real studio, and who sit and antagonize people behind their keyboards and say the same thing over and over and over and over. Kind of like a little league coach who yells at little kids, knows every stat in baseball, knows every in and out of the game, acts like he played college ball, but in reality never made it to pony league and is trying to live out some childhood fantasy of playing pro ball. Taking himself too seriously, but man does he understand physics. Blah blah blah. Only thing speaker size tells you is the size of the speaker. Where have I heard that 1,000 times? Blah blah blah. funny stuff....

 

[Machiavelli]

I would beg to differ considering you are moving much more air with a 15" as appose to 4 little speakers. just my opinion really. I have had both and love my Raunchy lows.

A 15" pushes more than a 10"...YES

A 15" pushes more than 4 10"...NO

 

[tbz]

Sounds like I hit a nerve. I never said people's opinion's aren't valid, I said that maybe they're taking themselves a bit too seriously. And yes, when I listen to a guy consistently post about his superior gear, talk about how it will blow every other manufacturers gear out of the water, all of the technical ins and outs of speaker and box technology, argue back and forth with everyone about how much better his box is, I would expect him to at least be able to play, and not sound horrible when doing so. When I hear/see that said guy plays about as well as my 7 year old I tend to put his future comments in the "uh, sure buddy" box. But then again, my favorite commentators in sports are typically ex pros, like George Foreman, John Elway, etc, not Bob Costas. Sounds like you're after a scientists insights, I'm after a musicians. I like bouncing ideas and concepts with real players in the real world, which there are a ton of here. There are also a few loud guys here who I question whether they've even played a real stage, ever been in a real studio, and who sit and antagonize people behind their keyboards and say the same thing over and over and over and over. Kind of like a little league coach who yells at little kids, knows every stat in baseball, knows every in and out of the game, acts like he played college ball, but in reality never made it to pony league and is trying to live out some childhood fantasy of playing pro ball. Taking himself too seriously, but man does he understand physics. Blah blah blah. Only thing speaker size tells you is the size of the speaker. Where have I heard that 1,000 times? Blah blah blah. funny stuff....

Doubtful, if I had to guess he's just impatient with this thoroughly flawed line of logic. E.g. "I want to believe what I want to believe, despite it being factually incorrect. Since I want to believe this, you need to also."

Also, when you state someone is taking themselves too seriously you do factually infer that their opinion is not valid. I'm not sure how that's not clear to you, but you might want to be aware of that.

Not quite sure why you have to assume folks that are knowledgeable about gear aren't technically skilled bassists as well.

That statement, and honestly the overall tone of your post, really seems like someone stating what they want to manifest, as opposed to what exists. Specifically you are somewhat technically proficient, but do not understand gear. Therefore to feel ok with that you have to assume people that do understand gear can't play well.

Might want to reconsider engaging folks with that stance. Especially here.

 

[carl h.]

The SVT-410HLF actually moves 10% more air than two 18-inch speakers, and 25% more than three 15-inch speakers

puny little 10 inch speakers...

 

[iualum]

puny little 10 inch speakers...

Highly doubtful . How do you figure that? Because Ampeg says so in its marketing hype? What's the Xmax of the drivers in the Ampeg? Is Ampeg telling? I don't think so. Which 18" & 15" speakers are you/they talking about? Some super-poor drivers they found somewhere w/virtually non-existent Xmaxes? W/O specifics/Xmax figures, this claim is meaningless.

 

[The Regulator]

Yep. I can't stand the 410HLF for precisely that reason. Uncontrollably amounts of low end, and not enough mid.

Owned it for a couple of months and got rid of it for the same reason. Replaced it with an SWR Goliath Sr. and my problems were solved. Nice punchy low-mids.

 

[JeffVanter]

The tone is completely different between a 10 and a 15. If anyone tells you that you won't be able to tell the difference, they probably do not have the ability to tell (lack of experience) or are ignorant. What I find is a 15 is much more organic sounding. Very natural, tons of low end support and buttery mid range and highs.

10's are a bit more in your face. Much more clear even with a ton of low end from your head, the notation is very clear, can be described as punchy, but overall the best way to describe it is "clear." Less organic in my humble opinion.

I combine both 4x10 and 1x15 and I was not satisfied with using the same head for both. Instead I got the same head for both and I use the EQ differently. It works wonders.

 

[Right_Butterscotch64]

Chemistry is a thing winemaking has. I'm sure there are similar discussions on talkwine.com.

Well I sure set myself up for that one.

 

[slade]

Doubtful, if I had to guess he's just impatient with this thoroughly flawed line of logic. E.g. "I want to believe what I want to believe, despite it being factually incorrect. Since I want to believe this, you need to also."

Also, when you state someone is taking themselves too seriously you do factually infer that their opinion is not valid. I'm not sure how that's not clear to you, but you might want to be aware of that.

Not quite sure why you have to assume folks that are knowledgeable about gear aren't technically skilled bassists as well.

That statement, and honestly the overall tone of your post, really seems like someone stating what they want to manifest, as opposed to what exists. Specifically you are somewhat technically proficient, but do not understand gear. Therefore to feel ok with that you have to assume people that do understand gear can't play well.

Might want to reconsider engaging folks with that stance. Especially here.

You make the incorrect assumption that I'm only talking about one side of the argument here. I play matched boxes and am as big of a gear hound as the next guy. I think getting pissy over someone's choice in gear is silly. I also believe some guys find their tone and rig in something other than what I like best ( like a 410 and 115) and I dig that and respect it. To each their own. Assuming that a guy is an idiot because he has found through his experience that most 410s have "a sound" and most single 15s have " a sound" is arrogant and condescending both. The best player I know refuses to play neos- he has his reasons and I respect them. Some here who can barely play ( proof after watching his video) doesn't have a more valid opinion because he tells me that scientifically neos are better and that his 112 is louder than most 410s. I'm in the market for some neo 15s so you can tell how much I care about anyone's opinion before my own. My opinion is that some people are taking things too seriously- and that just because your rig is capable of outperforming other rigs, your chops, pocket, and ear may limit you far more than your rig ever will. Like my golf swing does....

 

[Febs]

The tone is completely different between a 10 and a 15.

The tone is also completely different between a 10 and a 10, depending on how they're implemented.

And the tone is also completely different between a 15 and a 15, depending on how they're implemented.

And sometimes the tone is more similar between a 10 and a 15 than it is between two 10s or two 15s, depending on how they're implemented.

 

[iualum]

The tone is completely different between a 10 and a 15. If anyone tells you that you won't be able to tell the difference, they probably do not have the ability to tell (lack of experience) or are ignorant. What I find is a 15 is much more organic sounding. Very natural, tons of low end support and buttery mid range and highs.

10's are a bit more in your face. Much more clear even with a ton of low end from your head, the notation is very clear, can be described as punchy, but overall the best way to describe it is "clear." Less organic in my humble opinion.

I combine both 4x10 and 1x15 and I was not satisfied with using the same head for both. Instead I got the same head for both and I use the EQ differently. It works wonders.

. Horses can be led to H2O.

 

[Febs]

I think getting pissy over someone's choice in gear is silly.

It seems to me that what most people in this thread have responded to is not anyone's choice of gear, but rather to factually incorrect statements.

Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts. If the OP said, "I prefer the 1x15s I have played to the 4x10s I have played," that is his opinion, and no-one would have any basis to dispute it. When the OP says, "1x15 speakers push more air than 4x10 speakers," that is an assertion of fact that is demonstrably wrong.

And all this chest-thumping about whether people can play is flat-out stupid. If people want to spend their time on the engineering aspects of bass amplification, that is their prerogative. Leo Fender and Jim Marshall were not great guitar players, but where would the world of guitar amplification be today if it weren't for them?

 

[Rock-N-Dawg]

When 40 percent of the U.S. population apparently believes that the earth is less than 10,000 years old (recent Gallup poll), gullibility is definitely something that can be exploited for great profit. I certainly have a strong negative opinion about the thought processes of at least 40 percent of the population, then.

This is off track a little.....but i find the above comment more than a little bit out of line! I'm one of the 40% who believe the earth isn't more than 10,000 years old and my thought processes are fine! And that is based on the Bible and not a bunch of scientific smoke and mirrors.
As this post is semi entertaining with all the math and such. This kind of goes along with the same thinking, even with what all the numbers say I have owned approximately 25 cabs and tried an additional 25 or so with all sorts of drivers and many of the same manufacture and in most case but not all I find 15s sound deeper, feel deeper and rattle the windows more than 10s. Sorry the numbers don't prove it out but that's how my ears hear it.

 

[AndyPanda]

I read the first page or two of this - couldn't wade through the whole thing - so maybe this has been explained already (speaking as a former speaker designer):

You can get deep bass out of any size speaker if it is designed to produce bass (try some in ear monitors with tiny drivers that produce immense, deep bass)
Getting crystal clear high frequencies (20,000hz for example) generally requires low mass so it can vibrate that fast - a 15" cone would not be a good choice for reproducing 20,000hz. But there is nothing preventing small and light objects from vibrating at very low frequencies.

If you use identical motors and suspension in a 10" speaker and a 15" speaker - they will both have the same ability to produce the same low frequency. The optimum size of the cabinet (and size of port if vented) would be different for a single 15" than for a single 10". They would both be able to produce the same low frequency - the 15" would be a little louder for the same wattage (efficiency) at the low frequency than the 10" because of the larger cone. (though the 10" would be less likely to break up from mechanical stress of vibrating at that same low frequency - so the 10" could sound a bit tighter with less distortion when driven hard).

The main expense in a typical speaker is the motor - typical speakers have cones made essentially of paper mache (of course there are newer designs aluminum, kevlar, poly etc.) but the voice coils and magnets are generally more expensive to make than the cone. SO because a 15" and 10" with same motor would cost just about the same to manufacture - the 15" would have a little more efficiency (more volume for same amount of power) - and this is why (I believe) 15" and 18" speakers were always the more common speaker found in bass amps (back in the day, wattage was much more expensive and difficult to get - so a more efficient speaker was a great way to get more volume). Four 10" speakers with beefy motors would cost nearly 4 times as much to manufacture as one 15" and would weigh nearly 4 times as much and would handle 4 times as much power (though would not be 4 times as loud for same power input) - though in practice, most 10" bass speakers have smaller motors than a 15" - because they don't need to be as big (expensive to manufacture) - since they will likely be sharing the load across 2 or 4 speakers in same cabinet.

 

[Jeff Bonny]

This is off track a little.....but i find the above comment more than a little bit out of line! I'm one of the 40% who believe the earth isn't more than 10,000 years old and my thought processes are fine! And that is based on the Bible and not a bunch of scientific smoke and mirrors.
As this post is semi entertaining with all the math and such. This kind of goes along with the same thinking, even with what all the numbers say I have owned approximately 25 cabs and tried an additional 25 or so with all sorts of drivers and many of the same manufacture and in most case but not all I find 15s sound deeper, feel deeper and rattle the windows more than 10s. Sorry the numbers don't prove it out but that's how my ears hear it.

 

[slade]

It seems to me that what most people in this thread have responded to is not anyone's choice of gear, but rather to factually incorrect statements.

Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts. If the OP said, "I prefer the 1x15s I have played to the 4x10s I have played," that is his opinion, and no-one would have any basis to dispute it. When the OP says, "1x15 speakers push more air than 4x10 speakers," that is an assertion of fact that is demonstrably wrong.

And all this chest-thumping about whether people can play is flat-out stupid. If people want to spend their time on the engineering aspects of bass amplification, that is their prerogative. Leo Fender and Jim Marshall were not great guitar players, but where would the world of guitar amplification be today if it weren't for them?

Ah, so I'm chest thumping and stupid for preferring the opinion of experienced, talented, gigging and touring artists over a guy who talks big but can't play. Interesting judgement there.

 

[carl h.]

Ah, so I'm chest thumping and stupid for preferring the opinion of experienced, talented, gigging and touring artists over a guy who talks big but can't play. Interesting judgement there.

Ever talked to those guys first hand - both the science guys and the players?