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AudioKinesis Cabs Part VI...

Sweet!

So is 2 ohms becoming the new 4 ohms, sort of like low-B is the new low-E?
I'm not sure I'd generalize too much about either of those things. Sure, some players would like to run at 2 ohms and there are some new heads around that are capable of it, but I'm not sure how large a slice of the bassist population that is. ...interesting question, actually. Many of us are satisfied at 4 ohm minimum, as we've lived with it forever and designed our rigs around it. I'd guess that it's a smaller percentage than the low-B percentage. Last poll I saw had 4+ stringed basses at about 30% of annual sales volume. ...just food for thought in case you were planning to shift production focus ;). 8 ohm cabs are still very useful for mix-n-match IMHO.
 
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I'm not sure I'd generalize too much about either of those things. Sure, some players would like to run at 2 ohms and there are some new heads around that are capable of it, but I'm not sure how large a slice of the bassist population that is. ...interesting question, actually. Many of us are satisfied at 4 ohm minimum, as we've lived with it forever and designed our rigs around it. I'd guess that it's a smaller percentage than the low-B percentage. Last poll I saw had 4+ stringed basses at about 30% of annual sales volume. ...just food for thought in case you were planning to shift production focus ;). 8 ohm cabs are still very useful for mix-n-match IMHO.

Thank you for such a thorough and informative reality check!
 
So is 2 ohms becoming the new 4 ohms, sort of like low-B is the new low-E?

Goodness, no. There's probably a dozen amps total that can do it and, for point of reference, only three of them are available in our major city (Bergantino, Mesa, and Quilter). I would certainly not venture to say the status quo has shifted in any way just yet.

edit: four. forgot about the SVT.
 
Goodness, no. There's probably a dozen amps total that can do it and, for point of reference, only three of them are available in our major city (Bergantino, Mesa, and Quilter). I would certainly not venture to say the status quo has shifted in any way just yet.

edit: four. forgot about the SVT.

Thank you! I'd been seeing a lot of talk about those amps lately - probably because they are very interesting amps - and it distorted my world-view.

[tangent]Kinda like search engine optimization distorts our world-view... if I click on an article about old people being discriminated against, the internet thinks that's what I want to read about, and so it feeds me a grossly disproportionate number of articles on the subject. And if I click on some really outrageous-sounding fake news article on the subject, then I get fed even more of THAT, until my world-view on the subject is completely different from yours.[/tangent]
 
Thank you! I'd been seeing a lot of talk about those amps lately - probably because they are very interesting amps - and it distorted my world-view.

[tangent]Kinda like search engine optimization distorts our world-view... if I click on an article about old people being discriminated against, the internet thinks that's what I want to read about, and so it feeds me a grossly disproportionate number of articles on the subject. And if I click on some really outrageous-sounding fake news article on the subject, then I get fed even more of THAT, until my world-view on the subject is completely different from yours.[/tangent]

Not so fast: Listing of (mono) heads that will do 2 ohms
Or_wink.gif


And the list link from later in that thread: http://www.3ms.com/bass/2ohms.pdf
 
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Cracks me up to see the Birdhaus listed on the site. I remember when Duke said it was just a concept that wouldn't likely go into production. I wish I could collect all the cabs.

Yeah I was definitely off-and-on about it there for a while. I started getting feedback on my little Birdhaus 46 that its ultrawide dispersion was appreciated by the other members of the band, particularly on something like jazz. (And yes, I realize that "something like jazz" is probably still jazz.) So I decided, might as well give the idea a fair shot at surviving out in the real world.

But interesting that that sound fits into your worldview in the sense that the hi fi recordings of rock and roll wouldn't sound or feel right without that SVT kind of sound lurking...:)

I do love the tone of a good tube amp!! Over in the home audio world, virtually all of my speaker designs are intended to work well with output transformerless (OTL) tube amps, and you can't get much more tube-y than that.

But my customer bass around here has always been bass players willing to pay a boutique-cab premium in order to, among other things, save a few pounds. And I don't think many of those guys regularly lug an SVT around.

It wasn't until I ran a cab shape poll about a year ago that I realized people with tube heads don't have much to choose from in the way of wide-dispersion, traditionally voiced cabs that are wide enough for a tube head. Window of opportunity? Perhaps...
 
Yeah I was definitely off-and-on about it there for a while. I started getting feedback on my little Birdhaus 46 that its ultrawide dispersion was appreciated by the other members of the band, particularly on something like jazz. (And yes, I realize that "something like jazz" is probably still jazz.) So I decided, might as well give the idea a fair shot at surviving out in the real world.



I do love the tone of a good tube amp!! Over in the home audio world, virtually all of my speaker designs are intended to work well with output transformerless (OTL) tube amps, and you can't get much more tube-y than that.

But my customer bass around here has always been bass players willing to pay a boutique-cab premium in order to, among other things, save a few pounds. And I don't think many of those guys regularly lug an SVT around.

It wasn't until I ran a cab shape poll about a year ago that I realized people with tube heads don't have much to choose from in the way of wide-dispersion, traditionally voiced cabs that are wide enough for a tube head. Window of opportunity? Perhaps...
Got transformers?
Sunn 2000S 1968 Dual Tube Rectifier All Original Parts
 
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Yeah I was definitely off-and-on about it there for a while. I started getting feedback on my little Birdhaus 46 that its ultrawide dispersion was appreciated by the other members of the band, particularly on something like jazz. (And yes, I realize that "something like jazz" is probably still jazz.) So I decided, might as well give the idea a fair shot at surviving out in the real world.



I do love the tone of a good tube amp!! Over in the home audio world, virtually all of my speaker designs are intended to work well with output transformerless (OTL) tube amps, and you can't get much more tube-y than that.

But my customer bass around here has always been bass players willing to pay a boutique-cab premium in order to, among other things, save a few pounds. And I don't think many of those guys regularly lug an SVT around.

It wasn't until I ran a cab shape poll about a year ago that I realized people with tube heads don't have much to choose from in the way of wide-dispersion, traditionally voiced cabs that are wide enough for a tube head. Window of opportunity? Perhaps...
That's interesting, Duke. I'm curious what makes a speaker system good for tube amps, other than being large enough to support one of course. Are there certain tonal considerations that makes a cab good for tube amps vs solid state? Sealed instead of ported? Or is it more about power handling and efficiency?
 
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That's interesting, Duke. I'm curious what makes a speaker system good for tube amps, other than being large enough to support one of course. Are there certain tonal considerations that makes a cab good for tube amps vs solid state? Sealed instead of ported? Or is it more about power handling and efficiency?
Personally, I think all this hoo-ha about only certain cabs working with tube amps is the stuff of internet legend and has no basis in fact. Pair up a good sounding amp with a good sounding cab, and it matters not the format of the amp powering it.
 
Yeah I was definitely off-and-on about it there for a while. I started getting feedback on my little Birdhaus 46 that its ultrawide dispersion was appreciated by the other members of the band, particularly on something like jazz. (And yes, I realize that "something like jazz" is probably still jazz.) So I decided, might as well give the idea a fair shot at surviving out in the real world.



I do love the tone of a good tube amp!! Over in the home audio world, virtually all of my speaker designs are intended to work well with output transformerless (OTL) tube amps, and you can't get much more tube-y than that.

But my customer bass around here has always been bass players willing to pay a boutique-cab premium in order to, among other things, save a few pounds. And I don't think many of those guys regularly lug an SVT around.

It wasn't until I ran a cab shape poll about a year ago that I realized people with tube heads don't have much to choose from in the way of wide-dispersion, traditionally voiced cabs that are wide enough for a tube head. Window of opportunity? Perhaps...

I have used my Berg HG310 with my Ampeg B15S head, about 60 watts and very Svt-ish. That Berg cab is fairly unconventional with the rear firing 10". It sound incredible to my ears and feel. I believe you have a window of opportunity here.., I agree with Jimmy that a good cab is a good cab, period. My finger has been on the lever concerning your Bird Haus 4x6...a guy on the DB side here is getting one and I'm biding my time (and his!) to hear what he has to say.
 
That's interesting, Duke. I'm curious what makes a speaker system good for tube amps, other than being large enough to support one of course. Are there certain tonal considerations that makes a cab good for tube amps vs solid state? Sealed instead of ported? Or is it more about power handling and efficiency?

Well the most obvious is, the cab needs to be wide enough for the tube amp's feet.

Beyond that, tube amps in general behave differently into a speaker's impedance curve than solid state amps do. A solid state amp approximates a constant voltage source, so it tries to deliver the same voltage regardless of the speaker's impedance curve. So if a solid state amp delivers say 200 watts into 8 ohms, it will deliver 100 watts into 16 ohms, and it will try to deliver 400 watts into 4 ohms and 800 watts into 2 ohms... but usually it hits some limiting factor first (usually it lacks the ability to deliver enough current to continue doubling its wattage each time the impedance is cut in half).

A tube amp usually behaves more like a constant power source, particularly if it has low amounts of global negative feedback (which normally results in a high output impedance, or low damping factor, and a really nice-sounding distortion profile). So this type of amp tries to deliver approximately the same power regardless of the speaker's impedance. So if a tube amp delivers 200 watts into 8 ohms, it will probably deliver close to 200 watts into 16 ohms, and close to 200 watts into 4 ohms.

So now let's consider a hypothetical speaker impedance curve, and look at how these different types of amps behave into it. This is a two-way bass-reflex speaker tuned to about 50 Hz, so it's in the ballpark for what we might encounter in a bass cab:

B6%20new%20impedance.jpg


Let's assume this speaker was "voiced" for a solid state amp... most are. So if we use a tube amp, we'll be getting more wattage into the impedance peaks than the designer expected. So we will have a more upper-mid emphasis because more wattage than the designer planned on will be going into that 1.5 kHz peak; the upper bass will be louder (which may or may not be a good thing) because of the impedance peak at 70 Hz; and since the peak at 30 Hz is below the tuning frequency, it will tend to make the cab a bit more likely to fartout on a low-B than if we used a solid state amp. This speaker may very well sound better with a solid state amp than with a tube amp, unless it just so happens that the changes are improvements to our ears.

Let's look at another impedance curve, this time just a woofer (no mid or tweet) in a sealed box, like an "old school" bass cab:

IMP.jpg


Relative to a solid state amp, our tube amp will put more wattage into the speaker at the 45 Hz impedance peak, and it will also put out increasing wattage as we go up in frequency. Now more than likely a sealed-box bass cab would have it sbass peak in the 60-to-80 Hz region, so that is where the low-end "boost" would happen. So this speaker will have more bottom end, as well as more top end,when driven by a tube amp - and since both are usually desirable in a bass cab, it's not surprising that "old school" bass cabs tend to sound better with tube amps.

In the real world the differences may or may not be as dramatic as I have described here, depending on the specifics of the amplifiers and speakers involved. But the principles described are correct to the best of my knowledge and according to measurements I've made.

For a more thorough look at the subject of different amplifier paradigms, you might take a look at this paper: Paradigms in Amplifier Design

That was probably a longer answer than you were looking for. Sometimes my inner geek just takes over.
 
A great reply, Duke, very easy to understand even if you're not a designer. And it's not that I don't believe this to be true...I just have yet to see any dramatic difference on a practical level. Now correct me if I'm wrong, but this really matters the most when you hit the upper reaches of your cab's power handling capability, no? Well maybe it's that I rarely if ever get to that point with my gear. Also might be that I don't mind distortion and often use it :D But I've yet to experience any of that spiky behavior where if I hit a super low note I'm farting out my gear, and I've used all manner of ported and sealed cabs. Granted, I haven't used everything, but I have never used an amp I like into a cab I like and experienced anything but chocolaty goodness.
 
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A great reply, Duke, very easy to understand even if you're not a designer. And it's not that I don't believe this to be true...I just have yet to see any dramatic difference on a practical level. Now correct me if I'm wrong, but this really matters the most when you hit the upper reaches of your cab's power handling capability, no? Well maybe it's that I rarely if ever get to that point with my gear. Also might be that I don't mind distortion and often use it :D But I've yet to experience any of that spiky behavior where if I hit a super low note I'm farting out my gear, and I've used all manner of ported and sealed cabs. Granted, I haven't used everything, but I have never used an amp I like into a cab I like and experienced anything but chocolaty goodness.
I'm with you 100%, Jimmy.

When it comes to great gear, it's all good. To paraphrase my luthier friend Tony Karol, talking about his his work vs his competitors': "Past a certain level of excellence, every guitar is like ice cream. There are differences, sure, but it's still ice cream! It just comes down to whether you want maple walnut or rocky road."

That said, one of the things that I've learned from living with one of Duke's cabs for a few years, is that he is working at a pretty high level of subtlety.

I've paired my Thunderchild with at least a half-dozen heads so far, and I can't honestly say that the pairing I'm sticking with at the moment is 20% better than the last one. Or even 10%. But this cab is transparent enough, that it's opened my ears to small differences that I probably wouldn't have even noticed in the past.

Even if most of my audience never picks up on it, it's still incredibly enjoyable to me.
 
Personally, I think all this hoo-ha about only certain cabs working with tube amps is the stuff of internet legend and has no basis in fact. Pair up a good sounding amp with a good sounding cab, and it matters not the format of the amp powering it.
That's interesting but I have actually found the exact opposite in my experience. Most of my ported cabs had uncontrollable low end with my tube amps for example. I've found that tube amps are very picky about cabs whereas solid state amps don't seem to care what cab they're plugged into for the most part.
I asked Duke because anecdotal evidence is not as useful to me as actual information from someone who knows the "how" and "why" about the topic. As it turns out, there are quite a lot of characteristics inherent in tube amps that effect their interactions with speaker systems.