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AudioKinesis Cabs Part VI...
- Thread starter Thor
- Start date
You all and your Charlie Haden talk.....just cost me some money....haha! Thanks for the Haden talk...refreshing. (listening to brown rice now...Charlie Haden and Billy Higgins? Yes please! The best....and Charlie on wah wah bass??? Amazing.)
So a few more data points for those playing along at home. Last night was Steely Jam at a packed indoor venue. I ran the TC112-8 and H1203 stack. Plenty of booty, and if anything I think for the tone I go for the H1203 stack is probably a better fit. That said, no complaints from anyone. But to contrast that, today was an outdoor jazz hit and I took just the TC112-8. Plenty of mids and nice support. I did the same gig a month ago with a single H1203 which covered it but I think the TC112-8 covered it better.
So for me, this is starting to make sense. A single H1203 will cover most of my indoor jazz hits no problem. A pair of them will punch like nobody's business. The TC112 is the "I need some wider lows to fill things out" cab, at least for me. Indoors I end up cutting a bit of lows with it. But outdoors it really help keep things reasonably thick. And if you dial in a bit more mids it'll cut though not quite as effortlessly as the H1203.
So for me, this is starting to make sense. A single H1203 will cover most of my indoor jazz hits no problem. A pair of them will punch like nobody's business. The TC112 is the "I need some wider lows to fill things out" cab, at least for me. Indoors I end up cutting a bit of lows with it. But outdoors it really help keep things reasonably thick. And if you dial in a bit more mids it'll cut though not quite as effortlessly as the H1203.
Although I have the TC112v1 4ohm version, I share your thoughts on its tonality and use as well. Certain rooms indoors cut the lows a tad, or plug the ports as I did last night. Outdoor gigs, leave the ports open and let it fly!
Last nights gig was my final decision on whether or not I should sell my Berg AE112's. Well, they are now in the classifieds.
Last nights gig was my final decision on whether or not I should sell my Berg AE112's. Well, they are now in the classifieds.
This sounds reasonable. Outdoors I'll pull the plugs and keep the bass eq flat. But on every indoor gig I've had in the last year with my TC, I've always cut the bass. It helps cut and make things easier to manage.
- Nov 24, 2008
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- 7,163
- Disclosures
- Owner & designer, AudioKinesis; Auth. mfg, Big E (Home Audio only)
I wonder if you guys could help me with something, as my hands-on experience with bass cabs is both limited and partisan.
In another thread someone was asking about lightweight 8-ohm 2x10 bass cabs. The fEARful/Fearless 112s were suggested as an alternative, and based on my experience with the 3012LF, that makes sense to me. The OP came back with a question that I'm probably underqualified to answer, relative to you guys: "Will the 12's be as punchy [as a 210]?"
My guess is "darn close", but I'd rather double-check with you guys, based on experience with any of my 112 cabs (or any of Greenboy's, for that matter), and with 210s (of course not all 210s are created equal, but let's assume non-boutique).
Thanks!
In another thread someone was asking about lightweight 8-ohm 2x10 bass cabs. The fEARful/Fearless 112s were suggested as an alternative, and based on my experience with the 3012LF, that makes sense to me. The OP came back with a question that I'm probably underqualified to answer, relative to you guys: "Will the 12's be as punchy [as a 210]?"
My guess is "darn close", but I'd rather double-check with you guys, based on experience with any of my 112 cabs (or any of Greenboy's, for that matter), and with 210s (of course not all 210s are created equal, but let's assume non-boutique).
Thanks!
My only experience with 10s is via an Ashdown ABM 500 Evo II 210 combo. It has slim porting across the bottom front, and it generates a DARK sound. It's warm, not terribly defined, a bit pillowy. It is not what I'd call punchy. I'm sure someone else can better answer your question.
Duke,
I have owned a few 210 cabs in the past, only one of them was lightweight. I owned an old (circa 1993) Mesa Boogie 210, EBS 210, and an LDS210. The Mesa and EBS were far from lightweight, but my LDS was lightweight. Here are some thoughts...
TC112 V1 vs LDS 210 (lightweight). The LDS extended just as low as the TC112, but did not deliver the punch that the TC has. The LDS was more low mid forward than the TC, but the LDS was a bit ganky in the highs for my taste (1-2k region); I believe this is due to the tweet that was used in the LDS. Power handling about the same, but the TC extended much higher and was clearer than the LDS. I found the LDS to be a bit cloudy in the mids. Winner in my book, TC112. Way punchier and more transparent sounding.
TC112 V1 vs EBS 210 (not lightweight). The EBS did not extend as low as the TC, however equally as punchy as the TC, more mid forward than the TC, and probably just as bright on top, if not brighter than the TC. But I believe my EBS was made of birch, and it was HEAVY to transport. I also didn't care for the carpet finish that starts to look a little ratty after a while. The TC112 wins on power handling as well. However, if I showed up to a gig and an EBS 210 was there, I would not be disappointed. Its a great cab. For me the TC112 is the winner due to its size/portability, lower extension, and power handling.
TC112 vs Mesa Roadready 210 (circa 1993, not lightweight). The Mesa 210 is punchier than the TC112, extended just as low as the TC112 but perhaps with a little less bloom, more mid forward, and crisp on top. This era of Mesa cabs were phenomenal, and perhaps the best 210 and 410 model in that era IMO. The Mesa 210 was able to handle many gigs on its own, just as my TC112 does. Sound wise, I may have to give the edge to the MESA 210, but portability wise goes to the TC112. The Mesa 210 was very heavy (made with 3/4 birch) and a pita to lug around. So overall sound wise the Mesa may edge out the TC112, but not by much.
I think the best person to answer this question would be Mr. Bowlus…. Since he seems to have owned every cab known to the bass world. I would be curious to hear how the Berg AE210 compares as well.
All that being said, I love my TC112 and having a blast gigging with it.
I'm not an expert on sound, but what I call punch is mainly from the 100 to 200Hz range & has to do with how quickly notes around that range start & stop.
What I would call 'slam', is very similar, but has to do with frequencies around an octave lower or around 50 to 80Hz.
I would think the driver's specs would give some indication of how it might perform in these areas if put in a well designed enclosure, but then I could just
What I would call 'slam', is very similar, but has to do with frequencies around an octave lower or around 50 to 80Hz.
I would think the driver's specs would give some indication of how it might perform in these areas if put in a well designed enclosure, but then I could just
Duke,
My views from a designer/engineer standpoint are even less qualified than your views from a player standpoint. That said, my response would be that, while there is no necessary or natural correlation between driver size and performance (i.e. punchiness), in the real world of actual implementation, it has historically worked out that way - usually because both speaker designers and cab designers have been designing to meet common preconceptions and expectations, i.e. "tens are punchier than twelves, twelves are punchier than fifteens", and so on. But also due somewhat to the technical performance limitations of bass drivers that have existed until now.
As you well know, those design conventions have been challenged in recent years - in no small measure thanks to designers such as yourself and Andy Lewis, who have been "bending" the laws of physics to coax extraordinary performance from boxes that defy convention. (A good example might be that the GK Neo 115 cab is reputed to be far punchier than the Acme B2 cab, but the Acme goes far deeper than the GK.) So the reply "it depends" probably applies now more than ever, as the generalizations are becoming less accurate, and it really does depend upon the specific makes & models to which one is referring.
MM
My views from a designer/engineer standpoint are even less qualified than your views from a player standpoint. That said, my response would be that, while there is no necessary or natural correlation between driver size and performance (i.e. punchiness), in the real world of actual implementation, it has historically worked out that way - usually because both speaker designers and cab designers have been designing to meet common preconceptions and expectations, i.e. "tens are punchier than twelves, twelves are punchier than fifteens", and so on. But also due somewhat to the technical performance limitations of bass drivers that have existed until now.
As you well know, those design conventions have been challenged in recent years - in no small measure thanks to designers such as yourself and Andy Lewis, who have been "bending" the laws of physics to coax extraordinary performance from boxes that defy convention. (A good example might be that the GK Neo 115 cab is reputed to be far punchier than the Acme B2 cab, but the Acme goes far deeper than the GK.) So the reply "it depends" probably applies now more than ever, as the generalizations are becoming less accurate, and it really does depend upon the specific makes & models to which one is referring.
MM
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I gigged Berg AE210 cabs (one or a pair) for a year or two. They were the first generation which could get a bit edgy in the upper mids ("gank" is the technical term). I would say that the H1203 is comparable in the punch parameter, and a pair of the H1203s will bury any 210. The H1203 is a different character to the lows than the AE210 had. The Berg was fairly tight, with the H1203 being a bit more open.
I also had an Epifani 210 and that was a totally different beast. All low and highs, not very much going on in the mids. Never bonded with that cab. I've played through plenty of other 4-10 cabs but that is a different category of beast.
I also had an Epifani 210 and that was a totally different beast. All low and highs, not very much going on in the mids. Never bonded with that cab. I've played through plenty of other 4-10 cabs but that is a different category of beast.
Duke, I think these two answers, both well thought out and expressed, illustrate the problem you're going to have with this question.
Musicians sometimes but not always agree on the theoretical meanings of terms on forums. I've NEVER seen them agree completely when actually auditioning gear in real life. One man's "punch" is something altogether different to the next person who listens...
I've personally never heard a 2*10 that even approaches the punch of the Thunderchild in any of its variations, but that's only by my definition.
I think a Schroeder 15+L is at least as "punchy" as a Bergantino HS210. So...guess I'm in the earlier mentioned "no necessary or natural correlation between driver size and performance" camp.
- Apr 3, 2003
- 35,516
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- Disclosures
- Editor-in-Chief, Bass Gear Magazine
Sorry for the slight delay. We just got home from a (most excellent) family vacation.
My initial response would be that the word "punchy" tends to mean different things to different people, so right out of the gate, it makes for a difficult question to answer succinctly.
My short response would be, "Sure; in fact, they may be more so than a 2x10." But that response is probably not all that helpful. Many other factors come into play (above and beyond the subjective definition of "punchy"). What specific 1x12 are we talking about? What specific 2x10 are we talking about? What is the associated gear (bass and amp, etc)? What style of music, etc.
When I was helping Jim Bergantino beta test the IP cabs, it was very eye opening how the IP212 and IP310 - both of which are treated with DSP-based EQ and compression to perform virtually identically (extremely flat, with extended low frequency response) - could sound different. One would think that you could not tell them apart at all, since they measured almost identical. But the 10's and the 12's "communicate" the sound a bit differently. Jim was very good at describing how the phase coherence differed, but it was hard to keep it all straight, sometimes. What I heard, though, was a bit more of a "solid, down the middle" feel from the IP212, which I associated with 12" based drivers often (but not always) having a bit more sensitivity in the midrange. The IP310 sounded a tad more enveloping down low and a tad more open in the upper mids to the highs, which I associated with 10" based drivers sometimes being less sensitive in the middle of the mids.
Playing through lots of cabs based on both 10's and 12's, it does seem that the majority of the time, the 10" based cabs have a bigger sounding/feeling low end, and the majority of the time, the 12" based cabs are more articulate through the mids. But this is a gross generalization, and YMMV (greatly).
And then there are the 15" based cabs, which can really bust through preconceptions...
- Nov 24, 2008
- 4,343
- 7,163
- Disclosures
- Owner & designer, AudioKinesis; Auth. mfg, Big E (Home Audio only)
Dang it, Duke. Don't hit me with a 210 GAS attack.
"Comparison is the thief of joy."
- Theodore Roosevelt
"Comparison is the thief of joy."
- Theodore Roosevelt
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