• TalkBass has been independent since 1998. Add your voice.
    Create a free account to reply to discussions, view embedded media, and browse with fewer display ads.
    Join freeLog in
    Want zero display ads or expanded classifieds tools? Compare plans.

Avatar SB112 with MID !!!!!! The SB126

Would someone be kind enough to explain to me in simpleton terms what the main difference in the two crossover options would mean sound/tine wise?

And how does one decide which speaker is right for them?

Specifically, I play mainly hard and heavier rock, 80's to current.

Since the 1.6 kHz crossover is going to route your upper midrange frequencies over to the midrange driver at a lower frequency point, it would mean the midrange driver will be working harder than with the 2.5 kHz crossover, likely resulting in a bit harsher, more robust or more aggressive sound. It might also take a bit of stress off the woofer, but just a little bit. The downside is that the midrange driver might be more prone to overdriving and/or distortion, depending on how you set your EQ, and how loudly you play. The 2.5 kHz crossover allows the woofer to handle more of those upper mids, leaving the midrange driver to sound a little sweeter and more polite.

As for the woofer selection, you have to make a judgement call based on the character & voicing of the woofer, relative to its power handling capacity and extension (Xmax), relative to your preferences for the type of sound and performance you need. You'll want to consider the frequency slopes of your woofer options and your midrange driver options (Dave offers only one midrange driver, so that's easy), to determine which combination will probably work best together, at which crossover points - although typically the cab manufacturer will have that kind of thing already sorted out, and will make recommendations accordingly. The speaker data can be found on the websites of the major online retailers i.e. US Speaker, etc. or the manufacturer's own site, i.e. Eminence.

One example: If you look at the frequency slope for the Kappalite 3012 LF woofer, you'll note that the high midrange performance begins to take a steep nosedive at around 2 kHz...meaning a crossover set @ 2.5 kHz is going to result in a gap in the 2 kHz to 2.5 kHz range. So the 1.6 kHz crossover would likely work much better for that woofer.

For a heavy rocker, the conventional wisdom is that the Delta 12 LF would be the best option, since its voicing is considered a little deeper, fatter, richer, and the higher power rating would mean it's less likely to go into power compression when driven hard. Dave's OEM Deltalite II 2512, however, is reputed to be more versatile, a little cleaner, more modern...and more full-range, with a little less low end extension relative to the Delta, but providing better high midrange response, up to more than 3 kHz. So that one could easily be used with the 2.5 kHz crossover, and the Delta as well.

I've deliberately tried to avoid telling you what to do, since that would be presumptuous of me. Given what you've stated, if I were in your shoes, I'd go with the Delta LF and the 2.5 kHz crossover. But that's just a seat of the pants judgement.

Getting the gist? More information than you requested?

MM
 
Last edited:
Would someone be kind enough to explain to me in simpleton terms what the main difference in the two crossover options would mean sound/tine wise?

And how does one decide which speaker is right for them?

Specifically, I play mainly hard and heavier rock, 80's to current.
Dave at Avatar convinced me to go with the 2.5K crossover. Especially for rock. He also talked me into the ceramic magnets. He said enough TB members requested the 1.6K so he offers it. He thinks the 1.6K is not the choice for most players. The 2.5K equipped cab will be louder and more aggressive. The 12s can cover the mids up to 2.5K just fine. The 1.6K brings the mid cone in pretty low and forces it to take on a lot more than necessary. But he said that is a preference some players choose. I hope this helps.
 
  • Like
Reactions: DanGR
Dave at Avatar convinced me to go with the 2.5K crossover. Especially for rock. He also talked me into the ceramic magnets. He said enough TB members requested the 1.6K so he offers it. He thinks the 1.6K is not the choice for most players. The 2.5K equipped cab will be louder and more aggressive. The 12s can cover the mids up to 2.5K just fine. The 1.6K brings the mid cone in pretty low and forces it to take on a lot more than necessary. But he said that is a preference some players choose. I hope this helps.

I'm just speculating here, but since the fEARful, nEARful and fEARless designs all specify a crossover point of around 800 Hz up to around 1 kHz or so, the specified mid drivers must be designed to handle the additional frequency load, or else players would be blowing them up every day. They'd have to take over the midrange reproduction at that lower point, because the super high-excursion LF woofers can't.

This leads me to believe that the midrange driver Dave uses is more all-purpose, not heavy-duty such as the "fEAR" series would require, i.e. the 18 Sound 6ND410 and its variants. AFAIK, Dave hasn't actually specified the model. I think it's a proprietary design, so the specs aren't publicly avaiable.

MM
 
MM[/QUOTE]
I'm just speculating here, but since the fEARful, nEARful and fEARless designs all specify a crossover point of around 800 Hz up to around 1 kHz or so, the specified mid drivers must be designed to handle the additional frequency load, or else players would be blowing them up every day. They'd have to take over the midrange reproduction at that lower point, because the super high-excursion LF woofers can't.

This leads me to believe that the midrange driver Dave uses is more all-purpose, not heavy-duty such as the "fEAR" series would require, i.e. the 18 Sound 6ND410 and its variants. AFAIK, Dave hasn't actually specified the model. I think it's a proprietary design, so the specs aren't publicly avaiable.

MM
Maybe this?
http://www.eminence.com/speakers/speaker-detail/?model=Alpha_6CBMRA
 
Last edited:
Got it, Charlie. I never did see a reference to the specific model of Eminence midrange driver that Dave uses, and whether it's off the shelf or custom. Did I miss something?

Way back at the beginning of the earliest TB153 thread someone quoted the Avatar website as spec'ing a custom 6 1/2" closed-back driver, which is confirmed by what I just read there:

The Avatar Website said:
Again on Talkbass.com, the consensus was that a sealed back mid was the only way to go. We had Eminence make a custom 6 inch mid with a ceramic magnet because it sounds as smooth as silk and can handle even more power than the Neo 6 counterpart.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Mystic Michael
Way back at the beginning of the earliest TB153 thread someone quoted the Avatar website as spec'ing a custom 6 1/2" closed-back driver, which is confirmed by what I just read there:

Ah. So it handles lots of power, i.e. "..even more power than the Neo 6 counterpart". No reason then why it couldn't handle the increased load from a 1.6 kHz crossover, eh?

MM
 
A little OT here, but I'm getting the 210 with the Faital drivers, that was discussed in that thread about getting the truckload sale from fender. There was one on Ebay, brand new, that Dave was selling at an incredible price, and I couldn't resist. I have a single 15 that is loaded with the same model Faital as the 10's, and I really fell in love with the sound. I'm hoping the 10's have that same tone, with a little more high end sizzle.
 
Ah. So it handles lots of power, i.e. "..even more power than the Neo 6 counterpart". No reason then why it couldn't handle the increased load from a 1.6 kHz crossover, eh?

Even though I'm not under the TB CUP, I'm kind of reluctant to comment much on other people's design decisions unless they are fellow DIY'ers who invite that. But there's really not much energy in a bass signal above 1.6K in most cases (this is somewhat crossover-dependent), and it doesn't take all that much power handling to deal with that.
 
I have the Delta 12LF ceramic and the 2.5k crossover. I'm diggin' it. I play a Am Std P thru an EBS Multicomp - MXR M81 Preamp - MB500 or 400RBIV. Sounds good even with the drivers not broken in. I also have 2 SB112 cabs with the Deltalite 2512II's in them. I may swap out the 12's just to see what the Neo sounds like with the mid driver.

I play funky blues and RnB....
 
I have the Delta 12LF ceramic and the 2.5k crossover. I'm diggin' it. I play a Am Std P thru an EBS Multicomp - MXR M81 Preamp - MB500 or 400RBIV. Sounds good even with the drivers not broken in. I also have 2 SB112 cabs with the Deltalite 2512II's in them. I may swap out the 12's just to see what the Neo sounds like with the mid driver.

I play funky blues and RnB....
That's what we have coming. 212. 2.5K. G-K 400RB-IV. Should be here within a week..