Is the price point of the Big Twin low enough that two of them is in the same ball park as a 1515/66?
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Barefaced Bass 'BIG TWIN' ... lets talk about it...
- Thread starter pablomigraine
- Start date
Is the price point of the Big Twin low enough that two of them is in the same ball park as a 1515/66?
Two Big Twins will be slightly more than one 1515/66T.... which was something I was considering for a while, but Id rather be able to use one Big Twin, and break a second one out only when needed. Ive paid my dues in terms of hauling big monster cabs around....
So you believe you get different tone due to the type of power amp?
And if that is the case, please provide me with links that support this so I may educate myself on the reasons why.
Hmmm..... Not really sure how to respond to this, so we'll go with like kind;
Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying, you'll find several dozen threads regarding this topic in support of my opinion using the search function, and at least one published article on the topic from probably every single major print / online periodical surrounding the subjects of home audio, pro audio, Sound Reinforcement, Live sound, Guitars, Bass, Keyboard etc etc ..... but the best links I have are on either side of my head, coupled with the experience of literally hundreds of gigs and demos using at least a dozen different brands and models of power amplifier in the context of a live bass rig, about 3 years of doing FOH sound all over the east coast (involving experience with literally hundreds of power amps) and being an accredited professional in Pro-Audio for 5 years. Differents brands and models of power amplifier produce RADICALLY different results given the same signal and enclosure. If this were not the case, why would discerning people spend $4,000 on an amp from Lab Gruppen or Powersoft, when they could just buy a Peavey IPR? Why would Someone buy a Crest CA9 when Behringer makes a lovely amp with the same published wattage for less than a third the price? There are many different Toplogies and types of Power Amp. A Crown XLS802 is an entirely different type and topolgy of Amplifier than a Cown Macro-Tech... etc...
The way your post reads it seems a little condescending but perhaps you didn't mean it that way...If you're indicating that you believe all power amps of similar or identical wattage will sound the same give an identical signal and enclosure.... you're going to find very VERY few people who agree with you....Lots and lots of things in audio are highly subjective with different people hearing different things... however this topic is not highly subjective. Many people believe that a Peavey IPR sounds good enough for their purposes.... but very feel few will say they find them to sound and perfrom identically to a better Crown or QSC amplifier of the same published wattage.
Hope that helps....
+1 Thanks very much for popping in guys!
Please dont take it as condescending, its not meant to be. I just dont buy into the idea that different power amps sound different solely based on the type of output section. If there is published testing on this I would love to see it as science trumps opinion.
I'm sure there are tests out there to prove this. Probably many. But moreover... serious and multi-method tests exist which show that GENERALLY SPEAKING... a $300 amp that claims 1600 watts RMS is usually putting out much less across the full frequency spectrum (as opposed to a Sine Wave)... and a $1,000 amp which claims 1,600 watts is usually putting out 1600 watts or better. Wattage and clean headroom is directly proportional to accurate reproduction of both low frequency and accurate reproduction of the full spectrum. If an amp lacks the oomph to accurately reproduce low bass <100hz at high SPL, it will attentuate that frequency band thereby changing the sound. Do a search. There are some published tests here on talkbass... many more out there to be found in the likes of bassgear magazine, bass player, Modern Audio etc etc..... there is literally no dispute anywhere on this issue.... some amps just sound and perform better than others with identical specs. Just a fact.
I would take more caution in putting your faith into published specs over "opinion". The published specs come more from the marketing department than the R&D department and are highly dubious in terms of how those numbers are arrived at. There's a huge thread about how a popular amp advertised as making 450w actually puts out something like 237 watts.... and the manufacturer was foolish enough to respond by explaining how they changed thier testing methods and criteria to artifically "inflate" the number so more people would buy the amp.... because they felt they could not charge as much for the amp if they advertised it as being a 230 watt amp...... Most people find that an Aguilar DB750, rated at 750, watts is so much louder than a Peavey Tour 750 as to not even be in the sane ballpark. Both amps are the same topology... both rated at the same wattage.
There's a reason one 500w power amp costs $200 and another with identical specs (the science) costs $2,000.00.... in most peoples opinions the one sounds and perfroms alot better than the other....
By this same thinking Behringer makes a bass cabinet that, according to the specs, should absolutely CLOBBER a Big Twin!
Im not talking about published specs, Im talking about a scientific test. Something like a double blind study to see if there is a sonic difference due to the output stage on amps.
Hmm.... based on JUST the output stage of the Power Amp? Hmm I dunno.... there are lots of published tests about frequency spectrum fidelity in different power amps... but I think most of those tests take the whole unit into account... There' tons of these comparison tests out there. Bottom line: better amps produce more & cleaner continuous power across the frequency spectrum. If an amp lacks muscle in terms of slew rate, rail voltage recharge etc... then it will sag in the very lowest and highest parts of the frequency spectrum.... the end result being exactly the same as if someone turned those sliders down on a graphic EQ. If a test like that would mean more to you than opinions of thousands and thousands of users, magazine reviewers, industry professionals etc.... I guess you're entitled to it.....
There are many people who are happy with the IPR series, and many others for whom it doesn't perform to their standards. I'm one of them. You could spend some time searching out these studies... or just go to a Guitar Center where they have lots of different power amps hooked into a switching system and compare them for yourself. You will hear a huge difference.
Bringing us back on topic here.... Is there anyone who's played both the Barefaced Big Twin AND the FF 1212/6?
- Dec 28, 2010
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- Art of Noise Audio, fEARful builder
There really is only one way to settle this debate. Join the AES and read read read. It is completely worth it. You can probably buy the journals without being a member, or check your local college library.
Invalid Link Removed
Robby
+1 to hauling dues paid.
Yeah, I bet driving two Big Twins with a crown power amp is going to be a very serious bass rig - out of curiosity which preamp are you considering?
hmmmm.....probably either a Presonus Tube Channel with a Sansamp RBI, maybe JUST an RBI.... or an older Aguilar pre if I can find it.... not discounting the BBE Bmax either... I HATED the compressor on the unit I had... but I heard later models were upgraded.
I haven’t - but, again the FF 1212/6 has staggered woofers whereas the Big Twin has vertically aliened woofers and in theory vertically aliened woofers are best so the Big Twin is the superior design.
nice -Alembic makes a nice F-1X (mono) and F-2B (stereo) 12ax7 tube preamps too.
Wasnt this covered?
Absolutely - go ask BFM and use two 3015s for the example. Plus greenboy doesn't disagree, he only says you won't hear the difference.
And Alex, recognizing even though the different may be small Barefaced still took the extra step to be superior.
EDIT: hmm, well maybe Alex disagrees
Yep. Never really cared for either.... I think I've owned every bass preamp ever made at one point or another. Loved the Ampeg and Aguilar pres...
You might have already seen http://www.talkbass.com/forum/f127/fs-art-noise-fearful-1212-6-1-northern-va-863174/ in the tb classifieds.
Way cool, Ive used a few but surely nowhere near all. BTW, if you where building a wall of 15s Id have bad gas, lol - but those 12s+ are going to rock too.
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- John K Custom Basses
- Mar 8, 2011
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johnk_10 said:speaking of preamps, you might say that i've tried more than my share of them:
Seems you've checked out a couple
Pablomigraine has some great points in there re: amplification. Ideally....theoretically, all good poweramps should sound the same. Basically "flat" , or close to it throughout the range of human hearing....plus a little bit, just to be sure. Different classes/topologies should all arrive at the same place no matter which path they took to get there, but sadly, it just isn't the case. Differences are such that they don't just show up as a slightly different blip on a chart or graph....they actually sound different. Many things have been done to attribute this to something else in the chain, and also to attribute it to different amp classes/topologies. Neither is really right....just different.
That also brings up the difference between specs and specs. Marketeers, advertisers, etc. talk in "specs" all the time, but they have no right to do so. They only "spec" they're worried about is the one that measured effort of input vs. money released from your pocket. Leave the specs to the engineers, they're the only ones who truely care about the real specs anyway. Them and some of us who are parting with said money.
That also brings up the difference between specs and specs. Marketeers, advertisers, etc. talk in "specs" all the time, but they have no right to do so. They only "spec" they're worried about is the one that measured effort of input vs. money released from your pocket. Leave the specs to the engineers, they're the only ones who truely care about the real specs anyway. Them and some of us who are parting with said money.
