Crossdressing and bandmates.

[GwenOnBass]

Totally agreed. Not cool at all. I love reggae music but not that anti-gay "murder music," as some call it.

You saw Desmond Dekker live? Well I don't know how he felt about gay people but I LOVE his music! That is so awesome you got to see him sing live.


But to be fair, we saw Bugs change into a dress and Elmer didn't

This is a fair point about Bugs.

Yes, I'm most honored to have seen Desmond Dekker, and it was an intimate setting at the Melkweg (Amsterdam). I'm 100 percent certain he wasn't wearing a dress

 

[Feral Feline]

 

[hrodbert696]

In the US, we have a system for resolving these disputes.

Your opinion has already been adjudicated and found unconstitutional.
Heart of Atlanta Motel vs. United States. 1964.

This has been the law of the land for over 50 years. Please catch up.

Wanna go into business? Great, now you have to obey the rules of business (including not discriminating). Can't get through life without discriminating? Don't go into business. You have the choice and those are your choices.

It's not important that you agree with the law of the land. It's only important that you comply with it.

Heart of Atlanta v. US challenged the Civil Rights Act of 1964 on the basis of the 5th Amendment (that prohibiting discrimination violated the business owners' liberty and right to property without due process), and that challenge was defeated. However, if you look at Bob Jones University, they claimed 1st amendment protection for their racially discriminatory policies and were upheld, arguing that those policies were sincere religious convictions. They did suffer a penalty in that they became ineligible for federal funding and I believe they lost their non-profit status, but they were not required to end their discrimination by law. (I'm no fan of Bob Jones University, I'm just citing this to clarify the law). So it's not so black-and-white as your post makes it appear. A person does have a constitutional right to free exercise of their religion.

In any given case, the courts have to ask how that right weighs in the balance with other rights at stake and how various resolutions would burden the rights of the respective parties. Is the act of discrimination in question really a mandate of a sincerely held religious belief? Lots of draft dodgers had abrupt conversions to Mennonism during Vietnam. It certainly would be a substantial first amendment violation to, say, require a clergyman to preside at a wedding his religion disapproved of. It wouldn't be to require a diner to serve a sandwich to someone the owners thought were sinners. The cases that go to the courts are the ones that fall somewhere in between.

 

[catcauphonic]

I love this thread. Your individual answers give me insight into how well we would get along in real life. I never pass up an opportunity to don a fabulous outfit, but not all of my friends from birth really get it. Doesn't matter ... I now live and mostly only associate (outside of a work situation) with people who are accepting.

However, my band situation is kind of like work and rec rolled together, so I'm going to say it all depends on the band, the music you make, and your target audience. We're not really a 'fun let's get wild and party' type band ... which is the kind I mostly see doing this. We're more like the Cure in our vibe (though it worked pretty well for Robert Smith now that I think about it!)

Anyway, depending on the line up we're in on a given night, usually dictates the vibe and just how far I'll take it. I'm always kind of androgynous, and I can't remember the last time I shopped in a men's department. But out of respect for my mates, and the cohesion I'd rather obtain on stage ... are all factors in how I dress. Here's our first show at a house party on Halloween last year.

Btw, I've got a shoe collection that rivals Imelda Marcos, and more tights than Macy's!

 

[Bryan R. Tyler]

I love this thread. Your individual answers give me insight into how well we would get along in real life. I never pass up an opportunity to don a fabulous outfit, but not all of my friends from birth really get it. Doesn't matter ... I now live and mostly only associate (outside of a work situation) with people who are accepting.

However, my band situation is kind of like work and rec rolled together, so I'm going to say it all depends on the band, the music you make, and your target audience. We're not really a 'fun let's get wild and party' type band ... which is the kind I mostly see doing this. We're more like the Cure in our vibe (though it worked pretty well for Robert Smith now that I think about it!)

Anyway, depending on the line up we're in on a given night, usually dictates the vibe and just how far I'll take it. I'm always kind of androgynous, and I can't remember the last time I shopped in a men's department. But out of respect for my mates, and the cohesion I'd rather obtain on stage ... are all factors in how I dress. Here's our first show at a house party on Halloween last year. View attachment 898878

Btw, I've got a shoe collection that rivals Imelda Marcos, and more tights than Macy's!

I think your audience is less likely to be worried about your wardrobe than the fact that your singer's left hand moves at hummingbird speed.

 

[catcauphonic]

I think your audience is less likely to be worried about your wardrobe than the fact that your singer's left hand moves at hummingbird speed.

She's got a mean karate chop!

 

[pcake]

OK, I get that. So, lets say I have a deli and a homosexual couple comes in and orders sandwiches and are very loyal customers. I make them sandwiches and actually enjoy talking to them. But then one day they ask me to cater their wedding and the event violates my religious beliefs, and I am taught to not participate in such events.

I'm not discriminating against them when I deny. I've proved it by serving them sandwiches for a long time. Rather, I'm refusing to take part in an event to avoid violating my religious convictions. The first amendment protects my right to NOT participate in something that violates my religious beliefs.

Does that not seem reasonable?

Or are you saying that a person with religious convictions must not be allowed to put food on the table by owning their own business. That sounds kinda in violation of the first amendment.

i can't imagine why so many people with religious convictions seem to feel that they are being discriminated against if they aren't allowed to discriminate against others.



a lot of the same people who applauded that baker and kim davis scream prejudice if someone does anything that could be interpreted even with a huge stretch as discrimination against them. of course, that's not as likely to happen, as whether you're a christian couple or a KKK couple, no one can tell by looking at you. a same sex couple, black (or fill in the race) couple or couple who are little people are much more likely to be discriminated against simply because they can't pass for a "normal" couple, which seems to mean to those most likely to be bigots a mixed-gender, white couple of "normal" height, and come to think of it, i've seen people insulted publicly about their weight. i've also read articles about seniors who were functioning as fully autonomous adults who people felt shouldn't be allowed to marry as somehow their age alone makes them incapable of making their own decisions.

 

[LiquidMidnight]

Ah lovely, another interesting discussion hi-jacked by Rob's pseudo-intellectual brain farts.

Also, hate speech is not Constitutionally protected, nor have I ever heard of anyone who wanted a racism motif for their wedding, so your little KKK cartoon is lame and N/A. But if I owned a bakery, to be honest, I would bake a cake for a couple who were in the KKK because I'm not materially participating in hate speech. I just would make them find their own little robes and hoods for the couple on top

Not that I want to contribute to another one of Rob's tedious thread trains, but actually there is a funny story somewhat related to this. About five or six years ago, there was a white supremacist couple who named their son Adolph Hitler and tried to get a birthday cake made for him. They went to a store in their home state, which I think may have been Ohio, who refused to make the cake. So they went across the border to Pennsylvania and got a birthday cake with their son's name on it. Being a PA native, you could imagine the pride I had in my state over that one.

Edit: Found the story. The family was from New Jersey. Little 'Adolf Hitler' Denied Birthday Cake at New Jersey Grocery Store | Fox News

 

[alaskaleftybass]

I'm going to wave my freak flag high! Sweat Pants Forever!

Disclaimer: this isn't me!

 

[One Drop]

I love this thread. Your individual answers give me insight into how well we would get along in real life. I never pass up an opportunity to don a fabulous outfit, but not all of my friends from birth really get it. Doesn't matter ... I now live and mostly only associate (outside of a work situation) with people who are accepting.

However, my band situation is kind of like work and rec rolled together, so I'm going to say it all depends on the band, the music you make, and your target audience. We're not really a 'fun let's get wild and party' type band ... which is the kind I mostly see doing this. We're more like the Cure in our vibe (though it worked pretty well for Robert Smith now that I think about it!)

Anyway, depending on the line up we're in on a given night, usually dictates the vibe and just how far I'll take it. I'm always kind of androgynous, and I can't remember the last time I shopped in a men's department. But out of respect for my mates, and the cohesion I'd rather obtain on stage ... are all factors in how I dress. Here's our first show at a house party on Halloween last year. View attachment 898878

Btw, I've got a shoe collection that rivals Imelda Marcos, and more tights than Macy's!

Nice little dress that you're nearly not wearing!

 

[One Drop]

Ah lovely, another interesting discussion hi-jacked by Rob's pseudo-intellectual brain farts.



Not that I want to contribute to another one of Rob's tedious thread trains, but actually there is a funny story somewhat related to this. About five or six years ago, there was a white supremacist couple who named their son Adolph Hitler and tried to get a birthday cake made for him. They went to a store in their home state, which I think may have been Ohio, who refused to make the cake. So they went across the border to Pennsylvania and got a birthday cake with their son's name on it. Being a PA native, you could imagine the pride I had in my state over that one.

Edit: Found the story. The family was from New Jersey. Little 'Adolf Hitler' Denied Birthday Cake at New Jersey Grocery Store | Fox News

Reminds me of the guy who went to court to get his name changed. When asked his name and why he wanted to change it, upon hearing the man's name, Alfred Hitler, the judge mentioned he understood the man's desire for a change. To which the man replied "I know, Alfred is such a horrible name, right?".

 

[David Jayne]

i can't imagine why so many people with religious convictions seem to feel that they are being discriminated against if they aren't allowed to discriminate against others.



.

I would say that the example, in addition to being wrong is simply hypocritical. Why is it OK to sell sandwiches to these evil sinners for years before their wedding? Though you refuse to sell them a cake, will you continue to sell them sandwiches after their marriage, given that they are now Super, Next Level Evil sinners? This would be hilarious if it were funny.

 

[slobake]

Totally agreed. Not cool at all. I love reggae music but not that anti-gay "murder music," as some call it.

You saw Desmond Dekker live? Well I don't know how he felt about gay people but I LOVE his music! That is so awesome you got to see him sing live.


But to be fair, we saw Bugs change into a dress and Elmer didn't

Elmer did wear a wedding dress in "The Rabbit of Seville." One of my favorite cartoons from that era

 

[GwenOnBass]

Elmer did wear a wedding dress in "The Rabbit of Seville." One of my favorite cartoons from that era

Elmer also (briefly) wore a Carmen Miranda "hat" in The Rabbit of Seville.

 

[slobake]

Thanks to everyone here for helping a 20th century guy understand how other people see things. I am doing my best to catch up.

 

[ThudThudThud]

What a metrosexual.

As a man who both owns, and has worn a kilt on stage a number of times I must state that the kilt is a male only garment.
The 'kilted skirt' is a longer garment, and considered female dress.

Let's not derail the thread.

FWIW: 9 yards of pleated, thick wool is probably not the most practical stage attire.

 

[Gravedigger Dav]

We get it, you have a firm idea of the way men and women should act and dress, and aren't comfortable with those who think differently. You seem to be crying out for an argument here.

He is expressing traditional social norms. You are denying they exist.
Social norms change slowly over time. There is always a lot of acrimony in the transition. Look back through history at how women were seen 100 years ago, or race relations 100 years ago.
I will not use the term "progressive", because the loosening of some social norms are detrimental to society and others are beneficial.
You are hung up in a argument as old as civilization.

 

[I am Soma]

As a man who both owns, and has worn a kilt on stage a number of times I must state that the kilt is a male only garment.
The 'kilted skirt' is a longer garment, and considered female dress.

Let's not derail the thread.

FWIW: 9 yards of pleated, thick wool is probably not the most practical stage attire.

of all the derails you pick me out?! and maybe not the most practical but the awesome factors is pretty high.

 

[ThudThudThud]

of all the derails you pick me out?! and maybe not the most practical but the awesome factors is pretty high.

Oh, no, no, no....not picking you out at all.
Sorry if it seemed that way. I was making a statement, and just leapfrogging from your post. My mistake.

I must admit that when wearing a kilt there's a certain amount of attention from the ladies that we bass players rarely enjoy.

 

[Marial]

I will not use the term "progressive", because the loosening of some social norms are detrimental to society and others are beneficial.

Therein lies the rub... which is which?