It looks like poor Carol Kaye doesn't understand the internet

[mccartneyman]

Not everyone has a great memory for wherr and when they have played. I routinely mention gigs to guys I played with 30 years ago -- and I mean big gigs, like opening for The Allman Brothers or being on a national radio broadcast -- and they say, "I don't even remember that gig." I can imagine that for someone who has done a lot of sessions and gigs, memory could be foggy. That may apply to Carol. Why she continues to insist that she played on gigs where others have the proof that she did not, I don't know.

I can also easily see why a "chick" guitar player would have had to fight harder than a man, especially in the '60s. If she's abrasive, so be it. I have known and worked with enough idiots over my career to learn to appreciate them for how they play, not necessarily how thay act. Her work on "Good Vibrations" and many other sessions that can be documented, plus her instructional books & DVDs, tell me she can play, and I respect her for that.

 

[Shovelbone]

CK just need to eliminate the middleman, cut to the chase and sue the internet.

It also appears that her attorney is far more interested in generating billable hours than in advising her as to the most effective method of seeking redress.

She needs to go right to the source and file a lawsuit against Al Gore! He is the one who started this whole internet mess to begin with!

 

[standupright]

so tired of hearing from her. and she is overated

clips of your work? downloads of your lessons? bio?

 

[Pablo Fanque]

Her anger might be misdirected but can you blame her for being pissed?

Her financial security is in whatever royalties she earns from publications, recordings, etc. Pirating takes $$$ out of her pocket.

I know some of the young whippersnappers today think everything should be free, but that's not how a professional artist of her generation would see things.

 

[Rocky]

+1000

She seems to suffer from a quite obtrusive disorder forcing her to annoy the whole world with her livetime achievements, credits and claims of sessions she played on, lines she wrote .....

She should just lighten up a bit and groove...

But I don´t care !

And IMHO I find her playing utterly uninspiring. This is my very personal opinion. But seriously take a listen here at her Bass Solo:
http://carolkaye.com/www/library/sounds/mp3/bass_performances/Driving_crazy_merged.mp3

I have rarely heared some more irrelevant bass playing.

Judged by this show case I am thankful each time she swaps bass for guitar.

Cheers, Zeb

;-)

Annoy the world with her lifetime achievements? At least she has some! More than many many other pro players, and certainly more than you or I! You may be tired of hearing from her, but I'm more tired of hearing from wannabes that have nothing better to do than spread negative comments about people that did more for the music industry than they will ever do. Feel free to post your bio along with your groundbreaking solo...

 

[62bass]

Her anger might be misdirected but can you blame her for being pissed?

Her financial security is in whatever royalties she earns from publications, recordings, etc. Pirating takes $$$ out of her pocket.

I know some of the young whippersnappers today think everything should be free, but that's not how a professional artist of her generation would see things.

I agree. I can't believe that so many here have so much hatred hidden just below the surface. They are supposedly adults. Adults can control their emotions. They don't let their emotions control them. I can understand someone getting angry and losing it once in a while, but this whole thread is really ridiculous. A bunch of people who don't have any personal connection getting all worked up over something that shouldn't have any effect on them and of which they know nothing.

Anyhow, thanks for posting this Pablo. I agree with you.

The rest of you, flame away. I'm not going to bother replying. I'm going to practice instead.

 

[mccartneyman]

clips of your work? downloads of your lessons? bio?

Right on the money.

 

[Mr. Mig]

what bob babbitt says in his article would tend to substantiate carole kaye...bob lists several sessions where he was called in to re do someones line,and even though bob's was used,the other guy got the credit..

.it is/was not uncommon for sessions to be recorded more than once.....and the same players are not always in attendance....sometimes the original sessions are used sometimes the second or third rounds,and often combinations...

..i'm not sure why it's such a stretch to believe that more than one version of a song or album is recorded and decisions as to which ones are ultimately used made later.....far better to malign the career of a talented and well known player based on rumor and innuendo

The problem is not that she may have played on alternative tracks. The problem is that she claims that every one of them was hers. And in the case of James Jamerson? She claims she didn't get credit cause it was a black male agenda against her. Also, there is no need to call someone stupid when all they did was pointed something out.

 

[YL_Bass]

I agree. I can't believe that so many here have so much hatred hidden just below the surface. They are supposedly adults. Adults can control their emotions. They don't let their emotions control them. I can understand someone getting angry and losing it once in a while, but this whole thread is really ridiculous. A bunch of people who don't have any personal connection getting all worked up over something that shouldn't have any effect on them and of which they know nothing.

Anyhow, thanks for posting this Pablo. I agree with you.

The rest of you, flame away. I'm not going to bother replying. I'm going to practice instead.

So your defending Carol Kaye for doing the thing that your criticizing people here of doing?

For the most part I believe the discussion here has been rather mild, compared to the profanity laced messages she's been sending out. I'm sorry, but if you're a great accountant that isn't an excuse to treat people like that. Just because she's good at something doesn't make her beyond fault, and because we aren't as good as her doesn't exclude the opinions of the people here. If having an opinion on this site means you have to have an amazing bio and be one of the greatest players ever, talkbass isn't the community we think it is.

 

[Gawd]

I haven't seen much flaming here. All commentary has simply reflected her attitude.
I was as polite as I could be when I talked to her, I only offered some information, and she was incredibly rude. The only people I've ever seen that rude online are trolls, but at least they aren't serious. Even the way she wrote was like a troll, a lot of caps lock and void of logic. To be honest I was tempted to post the quotes here, but I think that would be low of me.

What kind of a world class teacher tells a young player that they are too stupid to learn anything? She is a great player, obviously. Her contribution to the electric bass community is vast, and most will never match it in their life time. But talent =/= manners.

 

[mcm]

again, she is overated. just another boring session bassist.

 

[PhatBasstard]

Annoy the world with her lifetime achievements? At least she has some! More than many many other pro players, and certainly more than you or I! You may be tired of hearing from her, but I'm more tired of hearing from wannabes that have nothing better to do than spread negative comments about people that did more for the music industry than they will ever do. Feel free to post your bio along with your groundbreaking solo...

The only problem here is she seems to be claiming doing a lot more for the "music industry" than scores of others, just as famous and acredited...some even more so, all claim she deserves.

No one's denying she may have played on some version or demo of a song in question. But when you're a session person who's basically in and out of several projects a day, and typically not around for the finished product, I don't think you're going to be able to recall with total certainty if you were the one to eventually make the track. Even the guy/girl that came in behind you may have copied a lick you originally put in making you think, years later, "Hey, that's me".
Plus, the Doors (and their producers), being there for the entire album vs. a session player who was just in and out, are probably going to know better which bassist's track was eventually used.

Bob Babbitt himself told of this exact situation where he and Jamerson were waiting somewhere across from the studio when a song both had apparently worked on came on the jukebox (look it up kiddies ). Jamerson started expressing how well he thought he did on the track when Babbitt told him "That's not you, it's me!". After some particulars were addressed Jamerson admitted that it was Babbitt.

I know CK has a long track record of this type of behavior, but I think being 74 we had better look to the possibilities that old age are starting to take hold of her faculties.

 

[Jim Campbell]

The problem is not that she may have played on alternative tracks. The problem is that she claims that every one was hers. And in the case of James Jamerson? She claims she didn't get credit cause it was a black male agenda against her. Also, there is no need to call someone stupid when all they did was pointed something out.

i don't know that she said what you claim,and given that you managed to attribute words to me that are clearly not mine,even though the quote is right in front of you....i will reserve judgement.......having lived in the era when she did her playing gives me good reason to believe that she may very well have received a rough ride from people in what was a very male dominated business....

 

[wade_b]

..and at the bottom of the page is this

<< DMCA removal notice >>

Let me get this straight then.

Carol Kaye doesn't understand how the internet works, because she is going after a torrent tracker site, and they have "nothing to do" with the infringement.

Well gee, the DMCA notice above tends to render that assertion pretty well null and void, right?

Sure - the torrent streams are still "out there" - but they're not available on THAT site anymore.

She's doing the right thing here, even if her manner is not agreeable to people.

 

[darkblack99]

The other question that's starting to appear in my strange little mind is, if she's claimed to have played on this or that session even in light of conclusive documentation that someone else (e.g. Manzarek, Krieger, and Densmore all saying it was Knechtel)... I can't help but start wondering what else she didn't actually play on, her claims notwithstanding?

I'd give her the benefit of the doubt to a degree as not every session from almost 50 years ago is documented, and not every session log filled out accurately - One example of this being Motown and Golden World in Detroit until 1968, competitors who often used the same session roster but who took great pains not to publicize their presence on GW sessions for fear that Motown would cut them off.
That said, there's no guarantee that the tracks that she (or another player in a similar situation) cut were used on the final master - an example of that being Love's Forever Changes, where L.A. sessioneers were called in to cover for a somewhat out-of-it band that then got it together enough to finish tracking on their own...and of course, she uses a plectrum almost exclusively, so things like an obvious fingerstyle performance would tend to undermine her claims somewhat.

Frankly, I think her story of the Doors debut session is nonsense - The version of Light My Fire that she 'played on' was quite probably Bob Theile and Gabor Szabo's, and she didn't play on that either, it was Max Bennett...For the rest, I'll leave the final word to a gentleman with some rather large credentials of his own, Invalid Link Removed.

 

[mccartneyman]

again, she is overated. just another boring session bassist.

Bore us with your studio resume, please.

 

[Mr_Sore_Fingerz]

LOL...Have they EVER used the internet before? It's the land of "free if you can get away with it" material lol. Companies use it constantly for blatant and forceful advertisement/re-direction all the time, they also use it for FREE market research too. Most people just get frustrated and don't feel guilty as the average consumer gets taken advantage of so often...not saying this is the case with Carole at all though.

That having been said...could somebody please explain the internet to her? That and her not playing on those albums that Jamerson actually played on =)

 

[superfunk47]

Bore us with your studio resume, please.

We have to have studio experience to have an opinion? Sorry, logical fallacy alert. Just because you don't agree with an opinion doesn't mean it's unfounded. I don't think CK is bad, or even that boring, but she sure likes to inflate her own image a lot. Past the point of being realistic, IMO.

 

[mccartneyman]

We have to have studio experience to have an opinion? Sorry, logical fallacy alert. Just because you don't agree with an opinion doesn't mean it's unfounded. I don't think CK is bad, or even that boring, but she sure likes to inflate her own image a lot. Past the point of being realistic, IMO.

Opinions require nothing than the ability to form one. However, a critique of someone's ability to play in a certain setting logically requires the one doing the critiquing to have some applicable experience in the same area. Anyone is free to say they don't like Carol Kaye's playing, but the person classify Carol or anyone as a boring, overrated session bassist should have experience and recorded examples to illustrate why they themselves are not a boring, overrated session bassist. I'm not defending Carol's claims, but I will defend her playing.

 

[mcm]

I don't do bios and sessions. I dont do bios because i'm a real player. I play live and perform. I dont care to do a bio on myself. Name one bad ass, legendary player that sat down and wrote a bio about himself? That's for the birds dude.

As for sessions, I don't care to play songs I do not care for. That is a bit fake in my opinion.