Jule Amps Monique part 5

[BurningSkies]

Very cool, thanks for all of the insight; the Monique is such a unique preamp that I'm always curious how others have dialed theirs in.

Pulling the Line Level knob out actually drives the tubes even harder than pulling out the Sensitivity knob does, resulting in an even thicker tone with more harmonics, even when only using the DI output.

I'd suggest giving it a try sometime, with the Sensitivity knob in of course, but you already have your tone pretty dialed

You're assuming I haven't. ; )

The line level control may push the 12AU7 harder, but not necessarily the DI side of it. I'd want Jule to weigh in on that. I'd be surprised if it was designed that way. My understanding is that it doesn't do anything to the 6SL7 first gain stage or EQ portion of the circuit. I personally found better tone by not pulling the line level, but coming close to maxing out the knob. There's also a healthy enough signal from the line level cranked that depending on my gain staging I can clip my power amp downstream, so having yet more output may not be ideal.

I used the line pulled for a while (something like 10 or 15 shows) before deciding that I was better off running pushed and cranked.

On the other hand, pulling the sensitivity control is pushing the front end of the signal chain (aka into the V1 6SL7), so yeah different thing. : )

 

[MDBass]

You're assuming I haven't. ; )

The line level control may push the 12AU7 harder, but not necessarily the DI side of it. I'd want Jule to weigh in on that. I'd be surprised if it was designed that way. My understanding is that it doesn't do anything to the 6SL7 first gain stage or EQ portion of the circuit. I personally found better tone by not pulling the line level, but coming close to maxing out the knob. There's also a healthy enough signal from the line level cranked that depending on my gain staging I can clip my power amp downstream, so having yet more output may not be ideal.

I used the line pulled for a while (something like 10 or 15 shows) before deciding that I was better off running pushed and cranked.

On the other hand, pulling the sensitivity control is pushing the front end of the signal chain (aka into the V1 6SL7), so yeah different thing. : )

I did pretty extensive testing on the unit when comparing it to the DB750 and REDDI, and there is considerably more gain from the DI output when pulling line level v sensitivity.

If I remember correctly from reading the manual, pulling sensitivity adds a 4dB of gain to the preamp stage and pulling line level adds 6dB of gain to BOTH preamp and line out stages.

@juledude?

 

[peterpalmieri]

Chatted with the guys about this when we had our GTG last week. Went back and reread the manual

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There seems to be conflicting information, page 3 says the line level boosts 4db and page 4 says 10db. The line level engaged the XLR while the sensitivity pull does not. Am I wrong?

 

[foderaman]

You're assuming I haven't. ; )

The line level control may push the 12AU7 harder, but not necessarily the DI side of it. I'd want Jule to weigh in on that. I'd be surprised if it was designed that way. My understanding is that it doesn't do anything to the 6SL7 first gain stage or EQ portion of the circuit. I personally found better tone by not pulling the line level, but coming close to maxing out the knob. There's also a healthy enough signal from the line level cranked that depending on my gain staging I can clip my power amp downstream, so having yet more output may not be ideal.

I used the line pulled for a while (something like 10 or 15 shows) before deciding that I was better off running pushed and cranked.

On the other hand, pulling the sensitivity control is pushing the front end of the signal chain (aka into the V1 6SL7), so yeah different thing. : )

Was told by Jule the 12AU7 is a Driver tube and I thought it was for the DI also but then I thought somewhere were I read he got the additional gain for the Push Pull on Line out Knob by using the 2nd half of the 12AU7 Driver Tube and the Push Pull would effect the Gain of the DI Also? But maybe I am misunderstand what Jule told me at the time ?My very early DC came with a 12AX7 as a Driver tube but after Jule updated it it came back with a 12AU7 in its place. Skies you had a early one like me from what I remember?If I remember correctly Chadds was the first TBer to jump on the Jule Train!!!

 

[peterpalmieri]

Questions are great things. I learn a heckuva lot from them. Thank you.

Yes. There is a +4db boost added to the input signal when the Sensitivity is pulled out toward you. This is not only a level increase. Other things are going on, but in doing those things there is a +4db level change.

Yes. The Line Level Push/Pull boosts the Level by +10db when it is pulled out. It is primarily a level increase. It is not designed to increase gain.

My advice for new Monique-Folk is to run the Sensitivity through its full sweep, push it in, pull it out - no matter what bass you are using. There is not a spot in any of that where you are going to go wrong. All that matters is what you prefer. I do understand that this is contrary to how a lot of controls are designed, but it has proven to be good advise.

A former neighbor of mine (guitar player) removed the knobs from his amp and used fingernail polish to hold each pot in place. He removed the knobs to make sure, "nobody copied his tone." The second objective was to make sure everything was exactly the same for every performance. He was a nice enough guy, but I found him a bit sad.

Just digging around for info

 

[BurningSkies]

It does look like it gives +4 at the output stage (12AU7) to both DI and Line. I honestly haven't ever had a request for more DI level from any FOH engineer with the DI level run at 12 o'clock, and I generally let any sound engineer I work with know that I have control the DI level at will.

And the manual does reinforce my belief that the Sensitivity push/pull is front end and the line level is on the output, which is what my phone conversations with Jule way back when led me to believe (back when we were first discussing the need for that switch to be added, as my first iteration didn't have it).

Nonwithstanding the 10db discrepancy in the manual.

 

[peterpalmieri]

It does look like it gives +4 at the output stage (12AU7) to both DI and Line. I honestly haven't ever had a request for more DI level from any FOH engineer with the DI level run at 12 o'clock, and I generally let any sound engineer I work with know that I have control the DI level at will.

And the manual does reinforce my belief that the Sensitivity push/pull is front end and the line level is on the output, which is what my phone conversations with Jule way back when led me to believe (back when we were first discussing the need for that switch to be added, as my first iteration didn't have it).

Nonwithstanding the 10db discrepancy in the manual.

When I was running the M700 I would always use the line level pulled and I would back off the DI output on the back because the signal is pretty hot.

I know a buddy who likes to dime the XLR output on the back to take full advantage of the cinemag, wondering if that is a misnomer...

 

[BurningSkies]

Just digging around for info

: ) That's good info. It echoes the fact that I didn't find that there was a tonal difference between cranking my line level full out or nearly so, or pulling the control and then only running it about half up. I can definitely tell a difference between the push/pull in a tonal sense with the sensitivity control, but don't find a difference beyond output level on the output.

In the end, the 4db v. 10db on the output increase is more academic than not for me. It doesn't change the tone, and I'm looking to feed my power amp effectively without running into a gain staging problem. past the output. In terms of DI, that additional signal level also isn't tonally altering things appreciably, and its probably also important to note that while close, the DI tone is not the same as the line tone.

 

[BurningSkies]

When I was running the M700 I would always use the line level pulled and I would back off the DI output on the back because the signal is pretty hot.

I know a buddy who likes to dime the XLR output on the back to take full advantage of the cinemag, wondering if that is a misnomer...

I'm not sure that it takes advantage of it more or less. The DI definitely has a tone fingerprint that's different from the Line out. As Jule points out, we're talking about 'level' rather than 'gain'. I actually tried running the DI to power amp at one point and really didn't love what it did over the line level once you get it into the same volume range...way more appropriate for send to board.

 

[BurningSkies]

Was told by Jule the 12AU7 is a Driver tube and I thought it was for the DI also but then I thought somewhere were I read he got the additional gain for the Push Pull on Line out Knob by using the 2nd half of the 12AU7 Driver Tube and the Push Pull would effect the Gain of the DI Also? But maybe I am misunderstand what Jule told me at the time ?My very early DC came with a 12AX7 as a Driver tube but after Jule updated it it came back with a 12AU7 in its place. Skies you had a early one like me from what I remember?If I remember correctly Chadds was the first TBer to jump on the Jule Train!!!

My original was one of the very first pre-order rack mounts, pre push/pull line out, but post 12AX7. Part of my initial discussion about output level was prompted due to another failure upstream from the output stage, but it was a good discussion to have as that was really the place where players were starting to match the Monique with power amps more exclusively than the earlier dove cages which were more being used in front of integrated amps and with units like the Berg IP's. My power amps were a.. .775 for sensitivity but there were a handful of people with the 1.4 situation.

IIRC when my unit went back to Jule originally for that previously mentioned other problem, he did juice my output level a bit...without adding a push/pull...just to make sure. which came just a bit later. My Mo' later DID go back again for changes and upgrades which included that push/pull. To make my timeline even more oblique, the unit I have now is a newer more current production model. My original one went to meet her maker and it's parts were cast to the four winds and Jule provided a new one for me.

 

[BurningSkies]

To make this more fun than esoteric though,

I haven't posted pics recently of the insides of the original one. I haven't opened the newer one (because why bother if it's working just fine )

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[foderaman]

My original was one of the very first pre-order rack mounts, pre push/pull line out, but post 12AX7. Part of my initial discussion about output level was prompted due to another failure upstream from the output stage, but it was a good discussion to have as that was really the place where players were starting to match the Monique with power amps more exclusively than the earlier dove cages which were more being used in front of integrated amps and with units like the Berg IP's. My power amps were a.. .775 for sensitivity but there were a handful of people with the 1.4 situation.

IIRC when my unit went back to Jule originally for that previously mentioned other problem, he did juice my output level a bit...without adding a push/pull...just to make sure. which came just a bit later. My Mo' later DID go back again for changes and upgrades which included that push/pull. To make my timeline even more oblique, the unit I have now is a newer more current production model. My original one went to meet her maker and it's parts were cast to the four winds and Jule provided a new one for me.

I was thinking you where one of the early Dove Cage owners like myself and Chadds rather than one of the first rack Moniques.If I remember right a lot of the owners of QSC power amp where having trouble with being driven properly since to original Monique put out .75 volt signal and they were looking for a 1.4 volts thats when the Push Pull came about on the Line Out.

 

[chadds]

I was thinking you where one of the early Dove Cage owners like myself and Chadds rather than one of the first rack Moniques.If I remember right a lot of the owners of QSC power amp where having trouble with being driven properly since to original Monique put out .75 volt signal and they were looking for a 1.4 volts thats when the Push Pull came about on the Line Out.

I resemble that remark. Yes I tested one of the 1.4v and it was too much signal and overdrove (not pleasingly) my amps. I am happy with the .775. Jule jokingly said that people weren't updating their early Moniques because they, one didn't want them to leave and two didn't want any tone changes. Hehehehehe.

 

[Peredur]

I have an early Dovecage with none of this push/pull malarky. Obviously that means that my tone is purer than all you recent guys! However, more is always more so I am wondering about sending it back to Tone HQ. The problem is that I am in Wales and just dont know if I going to get smacked about for import duties at both ends. Has anyone else from Europe any experience of doing this. I am more than happy to pay the Tonemeister for his time and lush valvey goodness but do not particularly want to be landed a huge bill by The Man.

 

[kevk]

When not gigging my Mo, I use the DI out in my home setup:

Mo>mixer>XLS2502>Berg HDN112's

There is a definite gain change coming into the board, dependent on the Line Level knob pushed/pulled (DI knob static)...

With this setup, I prefer the Line Level knob pushed in, DI control dime'd, and the XLS2502 set at 1.4v...still great headroom...

 

[BurningSkies]

I resemble that remark. Yes I tested one of the 1.4v and it was too much signal and overdrove (not pleasingly) my amps. I am happy with the .775. Jule jokingly said that people weren't updating their early Moniques because they, one didn't want them to leave and two didn't want any tone changes. Hehehehehe.

I held on to mine for over a year more just because I didn't want to go away while I was gigging, but there was not a good break time it ended up. I don't necessarily believe that there's much of a tonal negative, although I did have that discussion too.

 

[BurningSkies]

I was thinking you where one of the early Dove Cage owners like myself and Chadds rather than one of the first rack Moniques.If I remember right a lot of the owners of QSC power amp where having trouble with being driven properly since to original Monique put out .75 volt signal and they were looking for a 1.4 volts thats when the Push Pull came about on the Line Out.

Yeah, I was one of the 'cage rattlers' to get Jule to do a rack box. The form factor on the original dove cage, while beautiful, is a deal breaker for me. I really logistically can't have yet another piece of gear that needs it's own special case/bag/etc. and then has to sit on top of a stack. But indeed the first round of racks were the standard .75v output. I was real happy on Saturday to be back with my setup (albeit with only one of my cabs)...our gig on Thursday had me sharing rigs with our weekend tourmates...and using his borrowed Mesa combo...which didn't 'happen' for any of us on stage.

 

[pawnshopbill]

So Friday night I had a gig on a river boat, we sound checked on shore power and my Dovecage and M700 sounded great. When we set sail I found that my M700 had the red light of death illuminated and wouldn’t make a sound, the Dovecage worked great through the FOH. After the first set I plugged into a different port on the power conditioner and after a couple of songs it finally came to life. It worked well for about 45 minutes and then cut off again for a few minutes and then worked pretty well for the rest of the night.

Saturday I had a gig on land and it worked flawlessly.

Sunday we were back on the boat and again as soon as we set off there was a red light of death. This time I couldn’t get it to work and I just played the whole show in the FOH and my monitor.

I’m guessing that it has to do with the generator on the boat not supplying stable enough power? The boat wants to have us back as a regular gig and I don’t want to switch back to my old amp. Any ideas on how to solve this issue?

 

[BurningSkies]

So Friday night I had a gig on a river boat, we sound checked on shore power and my Dovecage and M700 sounded great. When we set sail I found that my M700 had the red light of death illuminated and wouldn’t make a sound, the Dovecage worked great through the FOH. After the first set I plugged into a different port on the power conditioner and after a couple of songs it finally came to life. It worked well for about 45 minutes and then cut off again for a few minutes and then worked pretty well for the rest of the night.

Saturday I had a gig on land and it worked flawlessly.

Sunday we were back on the boat and again as soon as we set off there was a red light of death. This time I couldn’t get it to work and I just played the whole show in the FOH and my monitor.

I’m guessing that it has to do with the generator on the boat not supplying stable enough power? The boat wants to have us back as a regular gig and I don’t want to switch back to my old amp. Any ideas on how to solve this issue?

This sucks, but I'm guessing it's entirely due to that generator power. My experience is that SMPS/class D amps in particular are sensitive to low voltage situations or brown power, which makes sense if you also buy the 1/8 duty cycle thing. Any chance of bringing a more traditional power amp or 'amp head' with you on the second round?

 

[AmazingMumford]

Yeah, I was one of the 'cage rattlers' to get Jule to do a rack box. The form factor on the original dove cage, while beautiful, is a deal breaker for me. I really logistically can't have yet another piece of gear that needs it's own special case/bag/etc. and then has to sit on top of a stack. But indeed the first round of racks were the standard .75v output.

My QSC PLX1802 and I appreciate your advocacy.