Markbass F1 Pricing

[Rano Bass]

From what... going under?

LOL post of the week right there!

People really should try not to post just for the shake of it, and wait until they actually have a more informed opinion instead of the classic "i beleive", "i think", "i don't know but i'll say this".
IMO of course.

 

[slugworth]

Markbass. I've never seen, played, or heard one. But 500 watts in a 4.5lb package for slightly more than a grand? With a bad back (yep, I had surgery) and 75+ gig nites a year with no roadie, am I interested? You bet yerass I am. I heard a blurb that GC is going to carry them, is this true?

Slug

 

[Brad Johnson]

Now, boys and girls, can we all play nicely please?

Let me clarify a few things:

1) As has been said, no-one here has yet heard the F1 and all that is being said is simply speculation. Time will tell how the market takes to the F1.

2) It is likely that the F1 will have a slightly different tone to the LMII. It is true to say that if that's the difference between nearly the tone you want and the actual tone you want then it's hard to put a value on that.

3) I am guessing (speculating - I do not know, nor does anyone else yet) that most people will choose between the F1 and LMII based on either size or price factors more so than sound (assuming they've narrowed their selection down to one or other of these amps and eliminated any competitor amps). Some people will say I'm talking out my @rse, but this is just my opinion - and just like @rseholes, everyone's got one! There may be gear heads on here who wouldn't understand any decision that wasn't based 100% on the sound, but we're talking about the mainstream and the majority who may be less discerning about the power amp differences than others.

IME people who are less discerning about what you stated are usually more discerning abut how much they spend.

Since the LMII is already smaller than most of it's competition, I don't see why size and price would trump sound when it comes to the kind of person the F1 is aimed at... basically someone who appreciates the technology and all that comes with it.

4) New innovations are always welcome and can command a premium in the market. Against the competition, the F1 is not overpriced. However, the reality for many (again, the mainstream and the majority) is that, unless portability is of the utmost importance, then people will likely consider both the F1 and the LMII.

And not sound? Again?

5) The LMII is a phenomenal amp regardless of price or size as has been said and I'm sure the F1 will be too. I have not questioned the quality of either and, frankly, it's not the point of this discussion.

6) The reason I started this thread is that Markbass appear to me (maybe not to others) to have made a rod for their own back because of the super-competive price of the LMII which makes the F1 appear expensive relative only to the LMII.

To you. To others, who look at the niche AS A WHOLE, it would be pretty odd to consider it expensive, especially without even KNOWING WHAT THE AMP DOES.

That's the truly odd thing about this thread... you know sound makes a difference to many people, especially those that spend bigger bucks, yet you conveniently ignore it whenever it butts up against your preconceived notions.

Why? It would make a heck of a lot more sense if you'd deal with the reality of the situation, unless you really want to come off like you're talking out of your arse.

Point 6 is really the crux of it. I'm not arguing about the quality of either head. I'm not arguing about how similar or different the two heads are. Frankly, I'm not even arguing! What I am saying is that, simply, to me, Markbass' pricing policy is inconsistent.

Sure... if you completely ignore what you do and don't know.

To have this opinion, I don't need to know about their production processes. I don't need to know about their distribution agreements. I don't need to know their margin structure. I don't need to know if they use competitive baskets to price their amps or if they use a 'cost plus' method. I don't even need to play through the F1 head. I just need to look at the current pricing of their current range.

Mission accomplished. You don't need to know ANYTHING about this to form an opinion other than price. At least you're honest about not really thinking about this, which is what I was talking about before.

It is my opinion (that word again!) that, if Markbass want to charge a 33% premium for the F1 over the LMII then it may not sell in the volumes one might have thought. The flipside of this is that more LMII's are likely to be sold, albeit at a likely lower margin.

I seriously doubt that MB plans to sell the F1 in the same numbers as the (IMO) underpriced LMII. Why would they? Does Chevrolet plan on selling as many Corvettes as Cobalts?

None of us know what the margin is on the LMII so stating that speculation not as speculation is just one more thing that's wrong with this.

I was surprised when I first saw the pricing on Thomann and
posted here firstly for information for the forum and secondly to see if my surprise was shared by others. As always, there are those that agree and those that disagree which is what makes TalkBass fun! All will be revealed in the fullness of time...

Why would anyone be surprised at the price on a step forward tech-wise that they've yet to hear? Why would they WANT to ASSUME that it's the same as another amp? Because...?


Because without that this thread makes no sense and holds no water.

 

[Brad Johnson]

LOL post of the week right there!

People really should try not to post just for the shake of it, and wait until they actually have a more informed opinion instead of the classic "i beleive", "i think", "i don't know but i'll say this".
IMO of course.

"Informed" opinions? How dare you? We'll have none of that nonsense.

 

[Brad Johnson]

Markbass. I've never seen, played, or heard one. But 500 watts in a 4.5lb package for slightly more than a grand? With a bad back (yep, I had surgery) and 75+ gig nites a year with no roadie, am I interested? You bet yerass I am. I heard a blurb that GC is going to carry them, is this true?

Slug

That's what's being completely ignored. The main group of people who have the discretionary funds to buy these things typically are concerned with size. They're also concerned with sound. If you deliver both in the same package, it will sell.

 

[slugworth]

That's what's being completely ignored. The main group of people who have the discretionary funds to buy these things typically are concerned with size. They're also concerned with sound. If you deliver both in the same package, it will sell.

>>> Damn right it will. Old farts like me hate humping gear.
When I consider that it will pay for itself in less than a month's worth of gigs, it's really a no brainer. Of course, I'm gonna surely put it to the test before I buy...If GC is gonna carry them, I'm lucky as there's one less than a mile from me. I'll keep checking in with them.

 

[slugworth]

Am I too greedy to have my cake and eat it too? I get kinda crotchety when I have to do the trade-offs thing. I feel GAS coming on, but at least it's got a purpose, this time.

 

[BurningSkies]

I certainly don't think that the 'realistic' pricing of the F1 will be an issue. Many of us LMII owners feel like we got a bargain. I also have a feeling that the LMII amp is a bit of a loss-leader for MB. It introduces the brand to the US market (and probably the EU market previously) with a 'bang'. And its certainly getting the name out and on the lips of bass players. This would be a great amp even if it was priced at 1K street.

Now, I don't have a bad back, nor am I old and decrepit, but SIZE DOES MATTER. I chose the LMII over the competition because I'm tired of carrying a 100lb rack by myself for load in...or up a flight or two of stairs at 2am when I get home. I like that I can carry it with a bass in one hand and a pile of other gear and still not break a sweat.

Now, the F1...if I could have an amp that would fit in a bass' gig bag? No doubt I'm interested...as long as it doesn't sacrifice tone. It would mean one less object to keep track of at the end of the night, it would make for another free hand to carry an extra mic stand or two on load in. It would mean that for small gigs I could carry ALL my stuff on one trip. Worth a few hundred extra bucks? Sure. Even with a street price of 1K or 1.2K it would be a bargain. There are no other amps that can boast that size and weight and power (hopefully with tone) in a 'real world' priced amp.

 

[inazone]

Speaking of price and not to stir the pot, but did anyone else hear from their GC that the price of the LMKII and some other MB gear is going up?

 

[slugworth]

I certainly don't think that the 'realistic' pricing of the F1 will be an issue. Many of us LMII owners feel like we got a bargain. I also have a feeling that the LMII amp is a bit of a loss-leader for MB. It introduces the brand to the US market (and probably the EU market previously) with a 'bang'. And its certainly getting the name out and on the lips of bass players. This would be a great amp even if it was priced at 1K street.

Now, I don't have a bad back, nor am I old and decrepit, but SIZE DOES MATTER. I chose the LMII over the competition because I'm tired of carrying a 100lb rack by myself for load in...or up a flight or two of stairs at 2am when I get home. I like that I can carry it with a bass in one hand and a pile of other gear and still not break a sweat.

Now, the F1...if I could have an amp that would fit in a bass' gig bag? No doubt I'm interested...as long as it doesn't sacrifice tone. It would mean one less object to keep track of at the end of the night, it would make for another free hand to carry an extra mic stand or two on load in. It would mean that for small gigs I could carry ALL my stuff on one trip. Worth a few hundred extra bucks? Sure. Even with a street price of 1K or 1.2K it would be a bargain. There are no other amps that can boast that size and weight and power (hopefully with tone) in a 'real world' priced amp.

>>> Hey, I said I was "crotchety" not "decrepit"
Thanks for the insight 'Skies, I think that ties it up quite nicely.

Cheers,

Slug

 

[slugworth]

Speaking of price and not to stir the pot, but did anyone else hear from their GC that the price of the LMKII and some other MB gear is going up?

I wouldn't be surprised due to the strength of the Euro vs.
the Dollar. That's one of the sticking points for some of the European gear manufacturers trying to make inroads to the US
marketplace. I'm going to Europe next month and I'm cringing at the current exchange rates.

 

[slugworth]

I try that telekinesis thing with my bass gear after every gig. Seems the stuff just won't cooperate in loading itself into my car after the gig..

 

[Peter Murray]

Speaking of price and not to stir the pot, but did anyone else hear from their GC that the price of the LMKII and some other MB gear is going up?

I can't talk specifics on here about price, but I can tell you that some prices have gone up, some have gone down, and some (including the Little Mark II) have stayed the same.

Cheers,
Peter

 

[KJung]

Hey guys. I've been A/Bing my LMII and the SD800 that arrived earlier this morning with various J type basses and my 410UL and NL-210.

Man, the 800 puts out the wump... amazing into my 4 ohm 410UL.

However... in the spirit of this thread, and assuming the F1 will be very much like a lower powered SD800 (this is an assumption I'm making based on the class D amp thing), I am definitely hearing differences between these two amps when the volume is set to produce the same output volume.

The LMII has a certain warmth and sweetness that I'm not quite able to replicate with the SD800. The low end is a little fatter on the LMII and the treble response has what seems like just a touch of 'give' in it. When you really do an aggressive pop (i.e., the pop part of a slap and pop technique) using the LMII, the top end stays nice and pleasant and musical, and the low end provides a very nice fullness to the tone.

With the SD800, the treble feels a little more like the iAmp... VERY clean and crisp... maybe even a touch 'clinical' or sterile'. The low end, on the other hand, is similar to the Thunderfunk... tighter, quicker and punchier than the LMII.

But man.... the SD800 puts out amazing volume, and I have a feeling on louder gigs, the subtle differences will go away.

I guess my feeling here is that if you aren't totally driven by the extreme small size of the F1, and don't need the massive headroom that the SD800 seems to provide (I obviously haven't gigged it yet), the LMII is just about the perfect combination and accurate, quick, but still a little 'warm' sounding, very lightweight and small, and quite loud (as loud as any other high quality 500 watt amp I've played).

They really do have something here with this LMII.

All of the above IMO and rather preliminary and 'non-gig proven'

K

 

[Hawkeye]

These new bass heads are using technology that has already been commercialized in the home theater subwoofer market.

The eventual customer benefits for bass players are higher power in a smaller form-factor which is beneficial for some but as has already been stated by others, not enough of a reason to switch. Personally I just don't see the point when we're all lugging around 30 to 80 lb. cabinets.

Where I really see the ultimate benefit of these technologies is when we start to see some small, light combos with these higher powered switching power supplies in the amps. Who wouldn't like a nice 1x12 Neo combo with 600 watts weighing only 25-30 lbs? The current new mini-amps are interesting, cool and all but "small for the sake of small" doesn't really appeal to me if you don't get xtra benefits like lower cost or some other added value. One thing is for sure, as they start to proliferate, the cost will go down from today's levels.

FYI this technology is also starting to be rolled out in the high end audio area, but so far those products are small but expensive and the jury is still out as to whether or not they actually sound better or not (in a full-range audio application) than the technologies that are already out there.

 

[KJung]

These new bass heads are using technology that has already been commercialized in the home theater subwoofer market.

The eventual customer benefits for bass players are higher power in a smaller form-factor which is beneficial for some but as has already been stated by others, not enough of a reason to switch. Personally I just don't see the point when we're all lugging around 30 to 80 lb. cabinets.

Where I really see the ultimate benefit of these technologies is when we start to see some small, light combos with these higher powered switching power supplies in the amps. Who wouldn't like a nice 1x12 Neo combo with 600 watts weighing only 25-30 lbs?

FYI this technology is also starting to be rolled out in the high end audio area but so far those products are small but expensive and the jury is still out as to whether or not they actually sound better or not (in a full-range audio application) than the technologies that are already out there.

Actually, Walter Woods has been using this technology in the bass amplification market for decades, and amps like the iAmp and Focus have been out for quite some time.

Many of us have been combining these amps with high quality neo cabs for a number of years with great success. I don't think there is much demand for combo amps in the high end market, but Markbass does have a few very lightweight offerings on the market, and other companies like EA and Epifani have combined neo cabs with lightweight heads to get close to what you are talking about (i.e., the iAmp500c and 112ULc, etc.).

Nice stuff!

 

[arbitrary]

The thing that keeps me from the LM2 really is the smaller EA IAMP 300 (about the same size as F1 and cheaper than the LM2).

I'm damned curious how the LM2's 500 watts would compare to EA's 300 watts going into a 10" speaker.

 

[Hawkeye]

I'm aware of those brands which have traditionally been the high-priced "mini" amps of choice. The market will probably morph in two directions:

1. ultra-small and still expensive
2. "smaller" like the Iamp but cheaper.

You can buy a class-D switch PS 450 watt subwoofer module for under $200 retail. These things are commodities now. The bass instrument amp market is fairly new (your examples aside).

I still think there's an opportunity for some high-end, light combos (practice rig-sized but with enough power to play out when needed).

 

[KJung]

The thing that keeps me from the LM2 really is the smaller EA IAMP 300 (about the same size as F1).

I'm damned curious how the LM22 500 watts would compare to EA's 300 watts going into a 10" speaker.

Actually, I think the F1 is closer in size to the LMII than the little EA amp. Peter can correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the footprint of the F1 is about the same as the LMII... about 10 by 11", but it is a couple inches or so less in height.

That small EA is REALLY small. All I can say is that I find my LMII to put out significantly more ooomph than my EA iAmp500, so my guess is there won't be any comparison between the LMII and the very small EA. That being said, if you are only using a single 110, you wouldn't need the power anyway, and the EA300 might just be the ticket for very small gigs.

K

 

[KJung]

I'm aware of those brands which have traditionally been the high-priced "mini" amps of choice. The market will probably morph in two directions:

1. ultra-small and still expensive
2. "smaller" like the Iamp but cheaper.

You can buy a class-D switch PS 450 watt subwoofer module for under $200 retail. These things are commodities now. The bass instrument amp market is fairly new (your examples aside).

I still think there's an opportunity for some high-end, light combos (practice rig-sized but with enough power to play out when needed).

+1 all the way on the above. It's a GREAT time to be a bassist!