Pre/Power setups that KILL!!!

[Mark Reccord]

Originally posted by prockenklang
Funny you mention the power cables,there are alot of people on Talkbass that have never heard them,but are convinced that they can't possibly work!! Check-out the thread on the amp forum about power cables,it is good for a laugh! These guys really dogged me hard.I did (6)different blind test with guys yesterday,and they were all blown away!!! To
John

There are also some of us who have done true double blind tests on high dollar hifi rigs, with the consensus being that high dollar AC cables don't do anything. The science supports that.
Of course, you didn't address that. You decided to insult me (and others) instead. That really helped your credibility.

I should also say that I'm not interested in reviving the debate. You have your views, I have mine and they aren't likely to change, but perhaps you should change your smug attitude.

 

[prockenklang]

Originally posted by Mark Reccord


There are also some of us who have done true double blind tests on high dollar hifi rigs, with the consensus being that high dollar AC cables don't do anything. The science supports that.
Of course, you didn't address that. You decided to insult me (and others) instead. That really helped your credibility.

I should also say that I'm not interested in reviving the debate. You have your views, I have mine and they aren't likely to change, but perhaps you should change your smug attitude.

I really don't want to revive this debate either,Lord knows I have taken a beating on this forum about the subject,but I wanted to respond to your last response and hopefully put this to rest.I didn't mean to offend you,we don't even know each other,but if you look at my original post,all I was trying to do was turn other fellow bass players on to something that I have found to be really cool! Instead of people at least having an open mind,and I knew that most people wouldn't believe me anyway without hearing the cables,afterall,I didn't believe the guy that told me until I tried them myself,I got attacked and insulted by guys that have never even tried one! If you tell me that you have an amp that blows everything on the market away(including mine),I am gonna want to hear it ,and if it smokes mine,I would buy it,not dog it! I am always looking for the ultimate tone,and welcome the opportunity to try new products! I know that you said that you had done double blind test on high dollar hi-fi rigs,but I have done the same many,many times on bass and guitar rigs,both inexpensive and hgh dollar and have found that they work.As I told my good friend Mark from Accu Groove,I did (6) blind test on Friday.One of the guys was not even a musician! I asked each guy(at seperate times) if I could "borrow their ears".I didn't even tell them what I was doing,all they knew was that they were going to hear a bass being played through an amp!Each time,we played the rig with a regular power cable,and then I would go behind the rig and change the cable to a Tara Labs wthout telling them what I was doing.We repeated the process several times wih each guy.At the end of each time of replacing the regular cable with the TaraLabs,every single guy said that the rig sounded better,and wanted to know what I was changing to get the rig to sound better. After repeating the process several times with each guy,I told them that the only thing I changed was the power cable! I don't expect you or anyone else here to beleive me,all I can say is try it yourself! If I seemed smug,which,by-the-way i'm really not(just ask Mark from AccuGroove!!!),may of been because it was my first time posting anything on this board,and I really expected people to be open to new things,and instead,I was insulted by most of the guys. Now can we get on with our lives and play some bass,I really suck at typing!!!
Peace,

John

 

[Whappo Grande]

This thread is supposed to be about killer preamps & power amps. My earlier post was to confirm that John's Glock rig is simply fantastic & that Glock amps & preamps are worth checking out.

Disclaimer: John does not use or endorse my products nor is his music store an AccuGroove dealer & probably never will be. (They sell Glock)

John is simply a great guy, a fantastic bass player and a perfectionist with a big heart. You may not agree with him, but please don't doubt his motives or sincere heart.

Mark

AccuGroove

 

[TRIPSTER]

Originally posted by Whappo Grande
This thread is supposed to be about killer preamps & power amps. My earlier post was to confirm that John's Glock rig is simply fantastic & that Glock amps & preamps are worth checking out.

Disclaimer: John does not use or endorse my products nor is his music store an AccuGroove dealer & probably never will be. (They sell Glock)

John is simply a great guy, a fantastic bass player and a perfectionist with has a big heart. You may not agree with him, but please don't doubt his motives or sincere heart.

Mark

AccuGroove

Ditto Whappo! Even though Prock's a Prick and Prock's Glocks Rock and I have played Prock's Glocks and can vouch for the fact that they Rock. Ummm....I have to go. Now. Looking forward to NAMM Prick, I mean Prock. Bring your Glock. Bring it.

 

[TRIPSTER]

One more thing: Glock Rocks. Indeed. Tara Labs are amazing cables. Wish I had some.

 

[Mark Reccord]

Originally posted by prockenklang
I really don't want to revive this debate either,Lord knows I have taken a beating on this forum about the subject,but I wanted to respond to your last response and hopefully put this to rest.I didn't mean to offend you,we don't even know each other,but if you look at my original post,all I was trying to do was turn other fellow bass players on to something that I have found to be really cool! Instead of people at least having an open mind,and I knew that most people wouldn't believe me anyway without hearing the cables,afterall,I didn't believe the guy that told me until I tried them myself,I got attacked and insulted by guys that have never even tried one! If you tell me that you have an amp that blows everything on the market away(including mine),I am gonna want to hear it ,and if it smokes mine,I would buy it,not dog it! I am always looking for the ultimate tone,and welcome the opportunity to try new products! I know that you said that you had done double blind test on high dollar hi-fi rigs,but I have done the same many,many times on bass and guitar rigs,both inexpensive and hgh dollar and have found that they work.As I told my good friend Mark from Accu Groove,I did (6) blind test on Friday.One of the guys was not even a musician! I asked each guy(at seperate times) if I could "borrow their ears".I didn't even tell them what I was doing,all they knew was that they were going to hear a bass being played through an amp!Each time,we played the rig with a regular power cable,and then I would go behind the rig and change the cable to a Tara Labs wthout telling them what I was doing.We repeated the process several times wih each guy.At the end of each time of replacing the regular cable with the TaraLabs,every single guy said that the rig sounded better,and wanted to know what I was changing to get the rig to sound better. After repeating the process several times with each guy,I told them that the only thing I changed was the power cable! I don't expect you or anyone else here to beleive me,all I can say is try it yourself! If I seemed smug,which,by-the-way i'm really not(just ask Mark from AccuGroove!!!),may of been because it was my first time posting anything on this board,and I really expected people to be open to new things,and instead,I was insulted by most of the guys. Now can we get on with our lives and play some bass,I really suck at typing!!!
Peace,

John

Fair enough. It's a bit silly to get upset about something someone on the net said, but your comment about the Peavey and Crate thing kinda stuck in my craw. I work with high end audio equipment every day....
I realize you got dogged hard in that thread, but I felt a bit hard done by because I don't feel that I attacked you. I just posted my take on the AC cable thing based on my experiences. Unlike a lot of the other posters, I've actually been involved in tests of esoteric AC cabes. Of the ones we tested, there really wasn't any audible difference. One of them was $3000 US. Now, we didn't test any Tara Labs cables, so I will concede that it's possible that they do make an audible difference. However, I remain very skeptical based on my experiences. Anyway, at this juncture, let's agree to disagree and put this behind us. I would love to check out your Glock rig, though....
Cheers,
Mark

 

[Jerry J]

Sometimes I wonder if stuff like this is similar to the Emperor's new clothes. But I recall a very famous stereo reviewer name Julian Hirsch that swore that if you couldn't find it on an O-scope then it didn't exist.

Many people perceive sound differently. There is no way that this can be measured. But then again it could be a case of the diminishing returns.

I sit on the fence and look both ways if you know what I mean.

Oh, and Long, it's great to see that you are around. I hope things are treating you well. It's great to hear from you.

 

[MauriLii]

Originally posted by Jerry J

But then again it could be a case of the diminishing returns.

I realize that it's out of context, but I don't think that anyone can argue with you on that one.

Originally posted by Tripster

Even though Prock's a Prick and Prock's Glocks Rock and I have played Prock's Glocks and can vouch for the fact that they Rock. Ummm....I have to go. Now. Looking forward to NAMM Prick, I mean Prock. Bring your Glock. Bring it.

Tripster, that's some funny stuff. I havn't laughed that hard in a long time. Thanks, man. You have to read some Spider Robinson if you have a sense of humor like that (a book of his called "Lady Slings The Booze" would be a good place to start--The title should say something about his writing style)

 

[TRIPSTER]

I'll keep that in mind. This thing needed at little levity. Spider Robinson? I will have to check that out. I was thinking more Dr. Seuss meets Vonnegut when I posted that.

 

[MauriLii]

Hey trip!

You have PM.

 

[prockenklang]

Originally posted by TRIPSTER
Ditto Whappo! Even though Prock's a Prick and Prock's Glocks Rock and I have played Prock's Glocks and can vouch for the fact that they Rock. Ummm....I have to go. Now. Looking forward to NAMM Prick, I mean Prock. Bring your Glock. Bring it.

Hey Trip,this post KILLED ME!!!! You ARE a Trip!! I can't wait for NAMM,it will be a blast! We will ROCK WITH GLOCK! We have got to take Udo out while we are in LA! Hope all is well with your wife and son,and I'll talk to you next week.


Prick,I mean Prock

 

[TRIPSTER]

Done!

 

[Bob Lee (QSC)]

Originally posted by prockenklang
I did (6) blind test on Friday.One of the guys was not even a musician! I asked each guy(at seperate times) if I could "borrow their ears".I didn't even tell them what I was doing,all they knew was that they were going to hear a bass being played through an amp!Each time,we played the rig with a regular power cable,and then I would go behind the rig and change the cable to a Tara Labs wthout telling them what I was doing.We repeated the process several times wih each guy.At the end of each time of replacing the regular cable with the TaraLabs,every single guy said that the rig sounded better,and wanted to know what I was changing to get the rig to sound better. After repeating the process several times with each guy,I told them that the only thing I changed was the power cable!

John, you told us you did blind tests, but what you describe is not even close to a blind test.

 

[Bob Lee (QSC)]

Originally posted by Jerry J
Sometimes I wonder if stuff like this is similar to the Emperor's new clothes. But I recall a very famous stereo reviewer name Julian Hirsch that swore that if you couldn't find it on an O-scope then it didn't exist.

It largely is a case of the Emperor's New Clothes. Or Stone Soup.

Hirsch never claimed that if you couldn't see it on a scope it didn't exist. But he did say essentially that anything audible (or inaudible) has a cause, and that cause can be investigated and identified. If it is a deficiency, it might not necessarily be something that can be easily corrected. In my experience and that of the many engineers I've worked with, he was correct.

The world is full of amazing cables. Some cost $5, some cost $500, yet they do the same thing. Most of the expensive ones, though seem to be solutions to non-existent problems.

 

[Jerry J]

Originally posted by Bob Lee (QSC)
It largely is a case of the Emperor's New Clothes. Or Stone Soup.

Hirsch never claimed that if you couldn't see it on a scope it didn't exist. But he did say essentially that anything audible (or inaudible) has a cause, and that cause can be investigated and identified. If it is a deficiency, it might not necessarily be something that can be easily corrected. In my experience and that of the many engineers I've worked with, he was correct.

The world is full of amazing cables. Some cost $5, some cost $500, yet they do the same thing. Most of the expensive ones, though seem to be solutions to non-existent problems.

This just seemed to be the way a large group felt after reading any number of Julian's reviews. The otherside, Absolute Sound and Stereophile, seemed to poke fun about that. But Julian never seemed to take into account that the human auditory nerve perceives so many immeasureable components in a tone that a piece of equipment could never recognize. There is some emotion involved in the hearing process that could never be measured, also.

These kind of topics can be debated infinatum and to the point of nauseum. I would never be the one to dispute that somebody doesn't hear something that I don't.

Scientific discussion seems to be counter to what I feel music is all about. And bass playing especially. To me bass playing is very passionate and a big part of tone is this passion of the musician.

 

[Bob Lee (QSC)]

Originally posted by Jerry J
But Julian never seemed to take into account that the human auditory nerve perceives so many immeasureable components in a tone that a piece of equipment could never recognize. There is some emotion involved in the hearing process that could never be measured, also.

No, I think it was the others who never took into account that any audible effects could be identified, probably because they were either unfamiliar with the means and methods to investigate them, or they were not interested.

There is nothing "immeasurable" about a tone except its subjective effects on a listener. However, if something causes an audible change in a signal, it is the signal itself that is being changed, and comparing the changed signal with the unchanged one is a first step in identifying the change. If two signals are identical, they will sound identical if played back through the same speaker. There is no extra data that flows along outside of the signal that influences how it sounds.

Scientific discussion seems to be counter to what I feel music is all about. And bass playing especially. To me bass playing is very passionate and a big part of tone is this passion of the musician.

Science and music, or technology and music, have always been intertwined; there is no either/or. Genius in both areas has enriched our lives, making new instruments possible, making it possible for us to enjoy performances in other locations and times. IMHO, truly enlightened technologists do not discount the artists' creative processes, and truly enlightened musicians do not discount the sciences. After all, some of us have loved music enough to become engineers and help further its development.

In addition to our great musical heroes, I also greatly appreciate the great engineers and scientists whose passions have made it possible for so many people to enjoy music, whether making it or listening to it: Julian Hirsch, Floyd Toole, John Eargle, Harry Olson, Kees Imminck, Rudy Van Gelder, Edwin Armstrong, and countless others.

 

[jeflepard]

I have the Kern 777 with a crest lt 1500 and it is excellent. I also highly recommend the Bergantino cabs.

 

[mgamache65]

my rig:

small shows get my 68 sunn 200s into two ampeg 15" svt cabs

larger shows or outside i use the following:
swr 750x
sansamp rbi preamp
ampeg 15" svt (2)
mesaboogie 2 x 10 powerhouse


two different animals but i can get my big rig to sound like my sunn which is nice !!!
can you say "GROWL"

 

[Brian Barrett]

Originally posted by jeflepard
I have the Kern 777 with a crest lt 1500 and it is excellent. I also highly recommend the Bergantino cabs.

KILLER RIG!!!!!! man after my own heart...........

I can't wait for the New CD series Crest Amp.....

 

[John D Harris]

Originally posted by Brian Barrett
KILLER RIG!!!!!! man after my own heart...........

I can't wait for the New CD series Crest Amp.....

Brian,

Do you have any design details?

While I'm on the 'off subject' is the only difference between the Crest LT and ST series, the switching power supply of the ST (esp. any sonic differences?)?

Thanks.