source audio c4

[sunbeast]

Yeah I have been looking at the Fishman thing as well, and agree with your summary of where it all stands. I think I gotta try one. I have a really narrow frame of what I want a synth to do.

For me it's about the enjoyment of playing and performing this kind of music on bass, not getting it on tape. I enjoy the hell out of playing challenging dance music on bass, even straight, or with the very vanilla ho-hum sine wave generating synth tone of the Boss SY-3/OC-2, but that's too much latency for them 16th notes. That said, C4 users are making keyboard sounds, and I would probably buy one if it had the richer FM sound, latency aside, and go piccolo, even if it's not the ultimate solution.

I'm gonna play with one of those cheap & cheesy button type guitar type instruments and see how it goes. I guess I'm in the niche that would have the most use for a real $3k wired-fret midi bass. That, into hardware like the Korg mentioned by @Quatschmacher above through the bass rig at volume sounds absolutely monster.

The OC-2 has basically no latency since it is pitching down using an analog approach (which is probably why it’s so popular), though it of course does require playing to the pedal in order to read the correct fundamental tone vs the harmonics. Most of the Boss SY sounds are also potentially pretty minimal as far as latency since they are using waveshaping (taking your input sound and running it through a bunch of mangling/manipulations to approximate the sound of a synth oscillator) rather than pitch tracking/triggering to get their sounds- the issue with the SY pedals is the polyphonic nature (as mentioned above), and you get strange artifacts from the algorithm that is separating the strings (which does have latency) which can make the attack of the note kinda strange. I use an SY1000 with GK-3 pickups on basses and guitars and the Dynamic Synth sounds are basically latency free (apart from the basic digital processing latency) since the GK-3 pickups send each string separately to its own processor.

 

[teopatl]

Yeah I have been looking at the Fishman thing as well, and agree with your summary of where it all stands. I think I gotta try one. I have a really narrow frame of what I want a synth to do.

For me it's about the enjoyment of playing and performing this kind of music on bass, not getting it on tape. I enjoy the hell out of playing challenging dance music on bass, even straight, or with the very vanilla ho-hum sine wave generating synth tone of the Boss SY-3/OC-2, but that's too much latency for them 16th notes. That said, C4 users are making keyboard sounds, and I would probably buy one if it had the richer FM sound, latency aside, and go piccolo, even if it's not the ultimate solution.

I'm gonna play with one of those cheap & cheesy button type guitar type instruments and see how it goes. I guess I'm in the niche that would have the most use for a real $3k wired-fret midi bass. That, into hardware like the Korg mentioned by @Quatschmacher above through the bass rig at volume sounds absolutely monster.

All valid questions to SA imo but if you're willing to eliminate the strings and play an fm2 with a plastic button guitar, why not just get a Yamaha dx and call it a day? Assuming you're into tweaking at the modulator and carrier level and the FMeron doesn't do what you need

 

[HorseRider]

All valid questions to SA imo but if you're willing to eliminate the strings and play an fm2 with a plastic button guitar, why not just get a Yamaha dx and call it a day? Assuming you're into tweaking at the modulator and carrier level and the FMeron doesn't do what you need

I dig where you're coming from about it. Well, the reason I addressed the question to the Source Audio guys is because this is clearly the next frontier. They did an admirable job putting a programmable Moog-y kind of synth in a stomp box with good latency. But complex FM is the next frontier. It has to be done. It will be done, by somebody. If people settled for the status quo we wouldn't have any synths.

Sure I could play keyboard, but it's not rock 'n roll, I like to jump around and enjoy playing strings. The whole thing about synth with a bass is obviously not what IT guys call "a solved problem" - there are countless forum threads about it. I love the sound of Dexed - which is nearly a perfect emulation of the DX7, because it was digital in the first place - but I love playing bass. People love to see you play bass.

I didn't like any of the sounds out of the FMeron that I heard - probably for the same reason; it has only one carrier and one modulator. So it's kind of a gimmick, and much more limited than the C4, which can at least stack another octaver or two in addition to the two FM channels (?)

 

[teopatl]

The whole thing about synth with a bass is obviously not what IT guys call "a solved problem"

On this we can agree!

 

[misterk73]

Hi, everyone. I've been away from bass for a few years. I spent that time either not making music or playing around with computer-based production, including some good exposure to MIDI, sound design, and synthesis.

At this point, I'm drawn to bass again, and I want some sound sculpting capabilities that don't rely on DAWs and plugins. Effects wise, I'm generally drawn towards pitch shifting, dynamic filters, dirt, delay, and reverb.

I've had my eye on SA for a while, and the C4 seems like a good option for a powerful, flexible pedal to meet some of those needs. It seems to offer an awful lot, especially at its price point.

With all that in mind, I'm hoping you can give me some insights and opinions on these questions:

1. ALTERNATIVES => Is there anything else on the market -- newer or older -- that I should consider? I'm not looking to spend more than ~$250 or so, and I want to maximize the flexibility and potential of my investment.

2. MIDI Part I => How stable and robust is the C4 (and SA) MIDI implementation at this point? I've read some mixed reviews, including some from earlier in this discussion.

3. MIDI Part II => The SA MIDI Adapter seems relevant ([Invalid or Expired Link Removed]). Would I need one adapter per SA pedal? Or would MIDI Thru be enough to support multiple SA pedals?

4. MIDI Part III => Is it possible for an iPad w/ Neuro app to communicate wirelessly with the C4 and/or other SA pedals? What about physical MIDI controllers? ***

*** I know I'd need to have a USB MIDI host device. Just want to be sure there aren't other issues I should be aware of. FWIW, I have a Midi Fighter Twister ( 16 knobs) and a KMI Soft Step (10 foot triggers).

THANKS SO MUCH!

Stray thought, in case it sparks any ideas or shifts advice: The only effects pedal I have at the moment is an old Digitech Bass Whammy.

 

[aglide]

I don't know the answers to all of your questions, but I can say that if you only have one or two SA pedals, you should be able to pair each of them with an SA MIDI adapter and daisy chain them. The Neuro Hub becomes more useful if you start to get more like 3-5 SA pedals, because it can perform the same function as multiple adapters. Note that there are also a few SA pedals with native MIDI DIN ports on them, like the EQ2, the Nemesis delay and Ventris reverb.

It's also worth noting that the Hub brings a feature where it can save a scene comprised of the state of multiple SA pedals, that can be recalled by one MIDI command sent to it. I personally don't use that feature and prefer to use my MIDI controller to send MIDI commands to each SA pedal when I want to make a change. I believe you'd have to do it like I do it if you have a separate adapter for each SA pedal.

MIDI in general has been stable for me for the SA pedals. I currently have a Nemesis, EQ2, Atlas, C4 and an Ultrawave all connected to the Hub, which is connected to an RJM PBC 6X MIDI controller.

Regarding C4 alternatives, I've heard that the Future Impact is similar.

 

[misterk73]

I don't know the answers to all of your questions, but I can say that if you only have one or two SA pedals, you should be able to pair each of them with an SA MIDI adapter and daisy chain them. The Neuro Hub becomes more useful if you start to get more like 3-5 SA pedals, because it can perform the same function as multiple adapters. Note that there are also a few SA pedals with native MIDI DIN ports on them, like the EQ2, the Nemesis delay and Ventris reverb.

It's also worth noting that the Hub brings a feature where it can save a scene comprised of the state of multiple SA pedals, that can be recalled by one MIDI command sent to it. I personally don't use that feature and prefer to use my MIDI controller to send MIDI commands to each SA pedal when I want to make a change. I believe you'd have to do it like I do it if you have a separate adapter for each SA pedal.

MIDI in general has been stable for me for the SA pedals. I currently have a Nemesis, EQ2, Atlas, C4 and an Ultrawave all connected to the Hub, which is connected to an RJM PBC 6X MIDI controller.

Regarding C4 alternatives, I've heard that the Future Impact is similar.

Thanks, @aglide! Super helpful. I'll take a look at the Future Impact.

 

[bassbrad]

@misterk73 welcome to the gaggle. I agree that the Panda Future Impact is well worth a look as it offers a few features that the C4 does not and visa versa. Tracking wise I find the C4 much more forgiving and even the glitches can be musical once you get the touch.
If you want 2 pedals to rule the world it is hard to beat the SA C4 Synth and Ultrawave Bass Lab
as there is so much below the hood on both.

I cannot really comment on the MIDI implementation except to say that I run all my SA pedals via a USB connection to a 'cheap' laptop and that has been issue free.

One bit of extra coolness on the Future Impact is it can be played with a MIDI keyboard, which is how I use it most often.

 

[misterk73]

@misterk73 welcome to the gaggle. I agree that the Panda Future Impact is well worth a look as it offers a few features that the C4 does not and visa versa. Tracking wise I find the C4 much more forgiving and even the glitches can be musical once you get the touch.
If you want 2 pedals to rule the world it is hard to beat the SA C4 Synth and Ultrawave Bass Lab
as there is so much below the hood on both.

I cannot really comment on the MIDI implementation except to say that I run all my SA pedals via a USB connection to a 'cheap' laptop and that has been issue free.

One bit of extra coolness on the Future Impact is it can be played with a MIDI keyboard, which is how I use it most often.

Thanks, @bassbrad. I've been thinking about this a lot lately, and the C4 + Ultrawave combo is one that seems likely to cover a ridiculous amount of ground. Not sure about going all in on SA -- yet, haha -- but I imagine a Collider on top of those two would be all I'd ever need. External MIDI keyboard feature you describe for the Future Impact is pretty interesting. Definitely another reason to consider it, but I really do prefer bass over keys, launchpads, etc.

 

[rsmith601]

Thanks, @bassbrad. I've been thinking about this a lot lately, and the C4 + Ultrawave combo is one that seems likely to cover a ridiculous amount of ground. Not sure about going all in on SA -- yet, haha -- but I imagine a Collider on top of those two would be all I'd ever need. External MIDI keyboard feature you describe for the Future Impact is pretty interesting. Definitely another reason to consider it, but I really do prefer bass over keys, launchpads, etc.

Go all in on SA.

 

[sunbeast]

Hi, everyone. I've been away from bass for a few years. I spent that time either not making music or playing around with computer-based production, including some good exposure to MIDI, sound design, and synthesis.

At this point, I'm drawn to bass again, and I want some sound sculpting capabilities that don't rely on DAWs and plugins. Effects wise, I'm generally drawn towards pitch shifting, dynamic filters, dirt, delay, and reverb.

I've had my eye on SA for a while, and the C4 seems like a good option for a powerful, flexible pedal to meet some of those needs. It seems to offer an awful lot, especially at its price point.

With all that in mind, I'm hoping you can give me some insights and opinions on these questions:

1. ALTERNATIVES => Is there anything else on the market -- newer or older -- that I should consider? I'm not looking to spend more than ~$250 or so, and I want to maximize the flexibility and potential of my investment.

2. MIDI Part I => How stable and robust is the C4 (and SA) MIDI implementation at this point? I've read some mixed reviews, including some from earlier in this discussion.

3. MIDI Part II => The SA MIDI Adapter seems relevant ([Invalid or Expired Link Removed]). Would I need one adapter per SA pedal? Or would MIDI Thru be enough to support multiple SA pedals?

4. MIDI Part III => Is it possible for an iPad w/ Neuro app to communicate wirelessly with the C4 and/or other SA pedals? What about physical MIDI controllers? ***

*** I know I'd need to have a USB MIDI host device. Just want to be sure there aren't other issues I should be aware of. FWIW, I have a Midi Fighter Twister ( 16 knobs) and a KMI Soft Step (10 foot triggers).

THANKS SO MUCH!

Stray thought, in case it sparks any ideas or shifts advice: The only effects pedal I have at the moment is an old Digitech Bass Whammy.

If you are looking for killer synth tones then the Future Impact is indeed a great alternative and has some great hardware and software perks going for it. The C4 is probably the better/easier choice for things like octaving/pitch-shifting/basic filtering/etc. I have both and find plenty reason to keep both. I disagree personally about the Future Impact having more problematic tracking, really they are just using very different tracking approaches that require different considerations and compromises- I find the apparent immediacy of the Future Impact tracking to be a big plus for some tones (it immediately triggers a note attack, while the C4 doesn't trigger a note until the pitch is detected- both approaches have pluses and minuses).

C4 MIDI has been pretty functional for me for basic control (the caveat being that it doesn't recognize multiple CC messages at once or in quick succession which is a big limitation for some more complex control), the fairly recent appearance of the SA MIDI adaptor makes it much easier to integrate in a typical non-computer MIDI setup. You don't need a USB MIDI Host for control if you are using this adaptor, which utilizes the 1/8" control input and interfaces directly to 5-pin MIDI. You would need an independent adaptor for each One-Series pedal you use unfortunately (which is when the SA Neuro Hub might start to look more enticing).

 

[misterk73]

If you are looking for killer synth tones then the Future Impact is indeed a great alternative and has some great hardware and software perks going for it. The C4 is probably the better/easier choice for things like octaving/pitch-shifting/basic filtering/etc. I have both and find plenty reason to keep both. I disagree personally about the Future Impact having more problematic tracking, really they are just using very different tracking approaches that require different considerations and compromises- I find the apparent immediacy of the Future Impact tracking to be a big plus for some tones (it immediately triggers a note attack, while the C4 doesn't trigger a note until the pitch is detected- both approaches have pluses and minuses).

C4 MIDI has been pretty functional for me for basic control (the caveat being that it doesn't recognize multiple CC messages at once or in quick succession which is a big limitation for some more complex control), the fairly recent appearance of the SA MIDI adaptor makes it much easier to integrate in a typical non-computer MIDI setup. You don't need a USB MIDI Host for control if you are using this adaptor, which utilizes the 1/8" control input and interfaces directly to 5-pin MIDI. You would need an independent adaptor for each One-Series pedal you use unfortunately (which is when the SA Neuro Hub might start to look more enticing).

Great insights, @sunbeast. Good to know I won’t necessarily need a MIDI host device, but kind of a bummer to learn I might need a MIDI adapter for each SA pedal. Still, I’ll be starting with one, in theory, and I might only have one for a while. Cheers!

 

[sunbeast]

Great insights, @sunbeast. Good to know I won’t necessarily need a MIDI host device, but kind of a bummer to learn I might need a MIDI adapter for each SA pedal. Still, I’ll be starting with one, in theory, and I might only have one for a while. Cheers!

Multiple MIDI adaptors or a single Neuro Hub for multiple SA pedals. For myself, the C4 is my only SA pedal so the SA MIDI adaptor makes the most sense (I have considered an SA Nemesis for awhile, but that pedal has normal 5-pin MIDI connection)

 

[rsmith601]

Multiple MIDI adaptors or a single Neuro Hub for multiple SA pedals. For myself, the C4 is my only SA pedal so the SA MIDI adaptor makes the most sense (I have considered an SA Nemesis for awhile, but that pedal has normal 5-pin MIDI connection)

The SA168 MIDI Adapter should have no limitations with multiple messages. This is a known limitation on the Hub that got lots of attention on the SA168.

 

[sunbeast]

The SA168 MIDI Adapter should have no limitations with multiple messages. This is a known limitation on the Hub that got lots of attention on the SA168.

I was more speaking to the ability of the C4 to actually respond to multiple messages sent in close succession. My understanding is that SA pedals themselves respond only to the first message and ignore messages sent at once or in quick succession

 

[rsmith601]

I was more speaking to the ability of the C4 to actually respond to multiple messages sent in close succession. My understanding is that SA pedals themselves respond only to the first message and ignore messages sent at once or in quick succession

I could be wrong, but this is a limitation of the MIDI adapter in question. I think @Quatschmacher tested this?

 

[Quatschmacher]

I could be wrong, but this is a limitation of the MIDI adapter in question. I think @Quatschmacher tested this?

Jesse confirmed that C4 couldn’t cope with multiple CC messages within a certain time window (can’t remember the exact ms value). It can be circumvented a bit by applying a delay to consecutive messages from the controller (providing the controller has that feature). I ran into that issue when creating a note freeze as I needed to simultaneously disable the envelope control and swap the pitch detection to input 2; I was able to do one or the other but not both simultaneously.

 

[rsmith601]

Jesse confirmed that C4 couldn’t cope with multiple CC messages within a certain time window (can’t remember the exact ms value). It can be circumvented a bit by applying a delay to consecutive messages from the controller (providing the controller has that feature). I ran into that issue when creating a note freeze as I needed to simultaneously disable the envelope control and swap the pitch detection to input 2; I was able to do one or the other but not both simultaneously.

But, did you test this with the SA168 and the C4? Jesse put extensive buffering into the SA168 which is designed to insert delays before things are sent to the C4. I just talked to him and he confirmed that this is the case. Somehow I thought you were one of the testers who looked at this with the SA168, but I might have that wrong. Thanks!

 

[Quatschmacher]

But, did you test this with the SA168 and the C4? Jesse put extensive buffering into the SA168 which is designed to insert delays before things are sent to the C4. I just talked to him and he confirmed that this is the case. Somehow I thought you were one of the testers who looked at this with the SA168, but I might have that wrong. Thanks!

Indeed I was meant to be but unfortunately Jesse only sent me one of the two cables I needed at the time I so wasn’t able to load the latest firmware onto it to test properly before I went abroad for a few weeks. By the time I got back it had launched.

 

[rsmith601]

Indeed I was meant to be but unfortunately Jesse only sent me one of the two cables I needed at the time I so wasn’t able to load the latest firmware onto it to test properly before I went abroad for a few weeks. By the time I got back it had launched.

Got it. So just to be clear to everyone, the C4 is NOT the limitation here. It is the device that is receiving and parsing the MIDI messages. The Hub has limitations on bursts of messages when it is used with the C4. The SA168 MIDI Adapter does not.