Struck Down For Playing A Jamerson Line!

[turf3]

I find it amusing that it's the rock players and the classical musicians who are the most insistent on playing note for note, the classical guys what's on the page and the rock guys what's on THHEEEE REECORRRD.

I thought rock and roll was supposed to be the music of freedom, and doing your own thing, and finding your own path. Instead y'all are just trying to petrify it in amber. I've said before and I'll say it again, I'd a hundred times rather hear a band play an old familiar chestnut in an interesting way, than yet another rendition of what I can hear for myself, done better, at any time with You Tuba. If your singer can't hit the high notes, take it down a fifth FFS. If you're three guys trying to play a tune whose famous recording has 20 musicians on it, edit and modify FFS. If the guitar player can't play the incredibly challenging intro part at tempo, change it, or leave it out altogether FFS.

 

[coy garcia]

Sometimes it happens when covering a tune in a trio of a large band. For instance there are 2 different bass lines for "Play that funky Music" The one you play when you have 2 guitar players and the one you play when you only have 1.

 

[LBS-bass]

it's an easy bass line. likewise, it would be easy to capture the essence of the tune by playing something else than note-for-note.

whether or not the others are 'correct' seems irrelevant. reducing the discussion to the usual binary thinking (either/or) is a stupid move for a tune that needs radical updating (in the first place) to be viable in modern dance venues.

i'd find out what the others were playing (changes) and play something appropriate. maybe the tune is a good call, maybe it isn't. you'd find out by trying to help the lame ones, if there are any.

jamerson was brilliant but he may have been 'recovering' (or bored, or bothered, yada yada) on the day that tune was recorded.

sometimes (mostly!) it makes sense to be a musician (instead of "just a bass player") in an ensemble setting.

if you can't deviate from your note-for-note, then write out the arrangement the others should adhere to and give it a go.

not a "hill i would die on!"

good luck!

You and I are usually pretty much in agreement most of the time. The real quibble I have is where people are assuming that the bass line is the fundamental problem here just because someone said so, and the thing that needs fixing here. I don't think that it's black and white thinking to expect that others learn the song first before deciding if the arrangement works with the given instrumentation.

We all come at this from different levels of experience, I guess. You play with a lot of competent players. Someone like me, not so much. My experiences are that most of the time there's someone in the ensemble who needs some hand-holding, and I don't fix anything for that person by giving in to his or her mistakes as a default position.

I may have to ultimately do that, because of the die/hill thing, but I'm going to try to make it better before I agree to accept the compromise. So if I have learned the bass line on the record, I'm going to see if there's a way to make it work before I accept the position that I'm the one causing the problem.

I don't think it makes a lot of sense for me to keep beating this dead horse here, but man, you guys want to roll over and take it on the chin way too quickly. It should absolutely be a group effort, but sometimes what the group needs to do is identify where the weak link is and fix it.

There are songs I play with one group that I have to play differently than the recorded versions and I've accepted that after pointing out that there are different chord changes on the record, and had that pretty much ignored. OK, I tried. The song isn't made better by my acceptance when half the chords in the break are missing, but that's how they play it, so that's how I play it. I'm sure people do notice. Just because people don't say the thing doesn't mean they aren't thinking it.

So I just think it's good to try first.

OK, that's the last peep out of me on this.

 

[Johnny StingRay]

Conductor: Today we will be rehearsing Beethoven’s 5th Symphony.
Bassists: Where is our music?
Conductor: The violins don’t want you to play what’s written so just wing it!

 

[Smooth_bass88]

FWIW- I just watched “summer of soul” and none of the bass players on that played Jamerson‘s parts note for note, but they were great nonetheless… played some amazing stuff. You’re already changing the key, so you might have to just roll with it.

 

[2F/2F]

"Throwing him off?" LOL. Tell him to become a better musician.

 

[Alexis Duntov]

I’ll be honest, the first time I ever sat down and listened closely to the bass line of that song was just now while reading this thread and I can definitely see how it would throw someone off if they were used to singing along with the melody off the recording and suddenly had the bass line right in their face in the rehearsal room.

I don’t really ever question James Jamerson’s note choices, but this isn’t exactly one of the songs that is propelled forward by one of his signature lines. Without it being buried in a mix of orchestra and backing vocal tracks, I could see this sounding really weird in a cover band situation. Personally, I would pick another song instead of trying to re-write that line. I was (briefly) in a Motown/soul band many years ago and we ran into this problem occasionally with certain songs: everyone was striving to do right by the song, but the synergy just wasn’t firing on all cylinders.

Exactly. You can’t ever recreate what happened at the original recording. I love Jamerson as much as everyone but sometimes I simplify or modify his parts to accommodate the situation. Frequently, tunes are transposed to different keys and what worked in one key (and on one kind of bass) doesn’t work well when transposed. We do “Ain’t’ that peculiar” and “Your love is taking me higher” in different keys. I’ve had to (respectfully) modify the Jamerson parts to work better in the new key and still on four string bass (the only kind I play). Do what the situation calls for. James himself would likely give the same advice.

 

[Robscott]

Well unless you have horns, strings and a piano you are not going to be playing it "correctly" so I don't think that is necessarily the best or only way to come at this problem. I just listened to the song (great track BTW) and while JJ plays a lovely line he is getting quite a bit of help from the piano and orchestration to define the harmony. Some of the time he is outlining the direction of harmonic movement rather than providing the anchor role. This is legitimate in that overall arrangement but it could all quickly fall over once you start taking those other instruments out of the mix. I agree with some other posts, it's worth exploring in rehearsals what you might all need to adjust to maintain the vibe of the song. If you want to stay close to the original bassline maybe your guitarist can experiment with different chord voicings so that at least one of you is sitting on a root most of the time. Ask yourself what JJ would play if the arrangement was for drums bass and rhythm guitar. Being the sophisticated musician he was, likely he would come up with something a lot different than the original. I hope you guys work together to find a way through this, cos it's a great number and I doubt many cover bands attempt it

 

[Wasnex]

No. Never dumb your stuff down if you know you're playing it correctly. Ask them why they haven't listened to the record.

I have left bands over people who wanted to micromanage my playing when I knew I was working hard to play things that were solidly supportive of the song and correct. Nobody gets to dictate to me what I play if they're the ones who are not hearing what they need to hear.

IMHO there can be a huge difference between someone constantly trying to tell me what to do, and someone occasionally asking if I can do something different. In general, it's not unusual to work a few things out here and there. Sometimes I ask others to make a few concessions as well.

 

[darwin-bass]

... I learned James Jamerson's part note for note. At rehearsal today our guitarist/vocalist said the bass line was throwing him off

Story. Of. My. Life.

My "band" is an ever revolving group of 1/2 committed volunteers. Different people every time I play, none with any true band experience. I always spend time prior to rehearsal learning the parts as best I can. Then we get there and find the piano player didn't listen to it, the gtr player doesn't play the syncopated rhythm changes right and we're not even doing the instrumental bridge. Drummer is not playing the right kick pattern and nobody is dropping out for the last measure before the chorus.

I end up adjusting / rewriting my part on the fly. But I have no choice. I can't bring myself to show up unprepared. I will not be that guy.

 

[lermgalieu]

I would adjust it unless you fill in all the other parts to the point where everyone feels comfortable that they can hear it. Not that I love that answer, but I've been there many times. Make the song sound good when YOUR BAND plays it, even if it is "dumbed down." As many have said, sometimes more advanced harmonies and counterpoints just don't sound right without additional instruments emphasizing them.

 

[mrjim123]

I'll reply with what seems to be the standard TB solution to any band problem (and I can't believe there isn't a sticky about this) - fire the drummer.

 

[bucephylus]

Depends entirely on the gig.

And, this is an aspect which MUST be discussed with ensemble mates in an intelligent way.

If the point of the gig is to faithfully render the original recording, then you would be playing the correct part.

But, another aspect to consider is that Jamerson himself rarely if ever played his original part the way it was recorded.

One aspect of American popular music is that there is an element of being in the moment; of using the music as living language. In this respect, it is entirely appropriate to play whatever seems to fit best with the particular performance. But, the rendition needs to be an informed rendition, not just playing randomly or wiggling your fingers.

So, my thing with Motown etc tunes is to learn the original recordings note for note and with all the nuances. But, that is the starting point; a reference. Then, adapt to whatever is happening. Knowing more than a handful of tunes helps with the vocabulary. GL.

 

[mrjim123]

Seriously, tell the guitarist/vocalist to lock in on the drummer and ignore you. If he's still having problems with the chord progression tell him to learn the damn song.

 

[Sid Fang]

Not much I can say that hasn't been said in the preceding six pages, except, perhaps, that you're playing in an *ensemble* who's doing an *arrangement* (possibly in a very loose sense of the term) of a *song*. Never mind artistic freedom, the improvisational roots of rock, and/or personal loyalty to a legendary player, when your ensemble is different from the one who made a famous recording, the arrangement will have to be different. I have often found myself needing to cover multiple parts of a famous arrangement at the same time on bass, which pretty much precludes playing any of them note-for-note, but the group sounds better if I do that than it would if I determinedly stuck to playing the bass part note-for-note.

 

[jdh3000]

There are a lot of "shoulds" and yes they should learn it if they intend to play it right, however it depends on what your function in the band is... of course you're the bass player, and obviously one who wants to do things right, but do you have a say in how arrangements should be?

Is this their band and you are hired in, or do you feel you are and equal member?

I know it's tough to bend to someone's wishes if they can't wrap their ear around a bass harmony line(one the doesn't play the root of the chord everyone else is on).

I've been there, playing a smooth line that walks in one direction while they go another...I'm doing it like the recording, but they think I'm not with them. This is usually less experienced players.

The best you can do in any case is set them down, play the song, preferably where you can boost the frequency of the bass because although you can hear it, they probably aren't hearing it, then play it at a flat eq level to show them how it blends and gives it that distinctive sound.

Play the dumbed down version with them and then the right way, and record both. If they can discern anything at all they should be able to hear the difference.

They need to focus their attention on what they are doing. It's like a singer who listens to another singers part and follows that instead of keeping the harmony going.

 

[JRA]

that's the last peep out of me on this.

(same! )

LBS, i'm pretty sure that there's no difference in our respective opinions that would ever drive me to drink. i followed your posts on this thread (and so many others) and i always respect your input. your POV is always a reminder to many of us that there's more than one way to skin-the-cat!

 

[MegaSwing]

My primary issue with ‘What Becomes of the Broken-Hearted’ is where can you play it, a wedding, a birthday party? It is a relentlessly dark song, not exactly one that fires people up and beckons them to the dance floor.

 

[tb-player]

My band is learning "What Becomes Of The Broken Hearted" so I learned James Jamerson's part note for note. At rehearsal today our guitarist/vocalist said the bass line was throwing him off, lol. It is a strange line with a lot of 5ths and 3rds being played over the root chords. Just wondering if I should simplify it a bit and/or if anyone here has covered it and what they ended up playing?

My guess is, they’re struggling with the key changes, not the bass line.

In the end, it doesn’t really matter, does it? Play what works for the band and slowly introduce the inversions as the band’s comfort level rises. If they still give you a hard time about it, suggest they scrap the tune and play Louie, Louie.

 

[Ben Esparza]

People don't want to hear a revamped interpretation of a tune unless it kicks total ass and gets them grooving. They want to hear something that sounds familiar and close to the original. Everyone knows you can't replicate the original but a reasonable facsimile works most of the time.

With that, I've played with some guitarists who have, for lack of a better term, honky-pox or white man's disease. They couldn't keep a beat in a cage. Many can get by but many can't hear syncopated bass and drum lines without it affecting their rhythmic strumming and, in extreme cases, their soloing. A good test for your guitarist is playing "Down on the Corner" by CCR and playing the bass line as written, note-for-note. That's one of those songs where bassline replication is a must or the song just dies. "My Girl" is another that requires bassline replication, especially on the intro.

If your bassline throws off his rhythmic strumming on "Down on the Corner", it's time to move on. YMMV.