The Un-Official Sadowsky SA200 Thread...

[hasbeen]

I agree with much of what you say here. I actually agree with most of what you're saying here. Yes..defined highs and lows...that can mean boosted or (depending on the speaker cab, strings and amp) not boosted but easily heard and clear.

The Sad pre- no mid scoop or control on it. You can't take the mids out.

My demo vids on our site? You have to put a mid scoop feature on a full-featured amp because people expect it...or want it. BTW- most of my vids there for slap tone ...everything on the bass is flat...and the amp is almost flat.

Honky/high mids you mentioned? Agreed, when you slap these can kill small dogs. On amps that have a separate high-mid I'll take just a click or two out with some basses and cabs.

Marcus though doesn't scoop is mids. Like you said, the lows mids are int there. So is 300-600hz. It does drop off a tad above that.

You and I also agree when you said "mid scoop doesn't mean no mids". That is what people do all to often though....and then can't be heard. I think it would be a fun experiment to ask Roger Sadowsky, Seymour Duncan and Mike Tobias why they suggest the mid scoop for slap. Then also ask they players on this forum that slap on large stages or in the studio what they recommend.

Admittedly this is a little bit of a soap box for me.

Well that's very odd! When I think of scooped mids, I think of Marcus' tone. You said "defined highs and lows"... IMO that's "boosted highs and lows", which is the same a mid scoop.

As explained above, the suggested slap setting for the SA200 is a mid scoop. The Duncan "slap contour" is a mid scoop. Mike Tobias' suggested slap setting for the MTD 535 is a mid scoop. The famous Sadowsky preamp is boost-only treble and bass, specifically designed to notch the mids at around 300Hz. Finally, the contour switches on the GBE750 provide a mid scoop, and in a GB video I saw, those contour switches were recommended for slapping (IIRC).

And all of that can sound wonderful. "Mid scoop" doesn't necessarily mean "no mids". Even though Marcus' tone is mid scooped, it still has plenty of growl in the low mids. He simply attenuates the raspy/nasally/honky mid-mids. Extreme mid scooping is generally a bad thing (except perhaps for those who like FieldyTonetm​), but nearly all the slappers I know attenuate mids, boost bass and treble, or both, to some degree!

 

[hasbeen]

• See above!!!!!!
• I was trying out settings suggested by the manufacturer
• It's fun playing around with the controls
• I'm going to scoop them some more while you are sleeping
• Usually I play with most controls at 12:00 on my Kern preamp, maybe mids at 1:00

Its all good. I was sporting anyway. Hey, I have some pretty strong opinions about what eq'ing will work in which situations but I'm certainly no facist about it. It is indeed fun tweaking. I went through all those settings in the manual too.

I ended up with basically everything flat except:
* I pull out all the "bottom" control when using my Lakland 5 or playing fretless.
* I put the mids on at 2-3:00 when playing fretless.
* When playing my fretted six string or slap, I keep the amp in "clean" mode.

BTW, I didn't sleep so well last night. I knew somewhere, somebody was messing with the mids.


Another BTW- I sent your pic to Jeff Genzler. He said "no comment because I think that's your wife".

 

[JimS]

I read that they are going to stop making this head... :scowl:

They are all gone and no more are being made.

I have an idea, perhaps someone could run the idea by Roger of making a Tube preamp based on this design.. Just a shot in the dark, but I think he would stand to make more money off of a pre than off of the sexy beast. Just a thought.

It's up to THE MAN.

 

[jazzy grille]

They are all gone and no more are being made.



It's up to THE MAN.

Yes I agree, he is THE MAN.


I will wing an Email by him about this idea, anyone please feel free to do so as well.

 

[Fuzzbass]

You and I also agree when you said "mid scoop doesn't mean no mids". That is what people do all to often though....and then can't be heard. I think it would be a fun experiment to ask Roger Sadowsky, Seymour Duncan and Mike Tobias why they suggest the mid scoop for slap. Then also ask they players on this forum that slap on large stages or in the studio what they recommend.

Our difference is likely semantics. We essentially agree... it's all too common for bassists to over-scoop mids because the resulting tone can sound so huge when practicing at home. I learned that myself the hard way: "Sounds great at home, why can't I hear myself onstage??" Hell, I recently bought and then sold some boutique speaker cabs because I felt they were too scooped in the mids.

 

[KJung]

I don't know any slappers (pro) that scoop the mids. It might sound cool by itself but not in a mix. The ears perceive a slap tone (like Marcus) as scooped because of the defined highs and lows. Really though, there are PLENTY of mids in most good slap tones.....which is why they are punchy and round.

Massive +1.

 

[JimS]

The more I play with this head the more I like it. I've only played a few days with it and off the bat the fingerstyle tones were really sweet. At first I wasn't thrilled with the slap tones but that's changing; the swoon factor is exponentially growing.

I found that all tone contols at flat or noon* except TOP at 2:00-300 and BOTTOM ocasionally nudged to 1:00 works for me with my Sadowsky basses. When I want to go from fingerstyle to slap I just boost the treble a bit with the OBP.
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*Including the mids. OK? OK? OK? OK?

 

[One Drop]

This is a bit besides the point, but maybe the confusion about scooping mids arises because so many cabs and some heads are voiced far from flat, with a mid or low mid bump built in. So when you hear an articulate slapping bassist with clean highs and lows it seem scooped by comparison.

Then again, maybe I'm talking out of my arse.

 

[Fuzzbass]

The Sad pre- no mid scoop or control on it. You can't take the mids out.

Just caught this... I'm surprised to hear it. There are two ways to scoop mids. First, by cutting midrange frequencies. Second, by boosting bass and treble. Same thing. Either way you get a U or a V shaped curve, i.e. the smiley face.

Those who use a Sadowsky pre to boost bass and treble are essentially cutting 300Hz (IIRC). Roger Sadowsky has said so himself here in this forum. The success of the Sadowsky pre speaks for itself. Mid scoop can sound wonderful.

When you say Marcus Miller has "defined highs and lows", I completely agree. Because enhanced highs and lows is the same as diminished mids, I consider Marcus the definition of the modern scooped-mid sound. Not overly-scooped, just scooped.

As for surveying pro slappers: last night I went to see a band featuring bassist Link Removed. His solo album just got a Invalid Link Removed in Bass Player magazine. He's a top-notch player, one of the best in my megametropolitan area, fingerstyle and slap. His tone is excellent, fingerstyle and slap. Here's his rig, see the EQ for yourself:

 

[KJung]

I came in kind of late on this and hadn't seen the context of Hasbeen's posts. While I still agree that a 'scooped' tone is just death for live slap style playing, as we all know, an amp's absolute knob or slider position has very little to do with the tone relative to 'flat'.

Having owned the all in one head version of the pre in the picture above, assuming he does not have the horrible 'contour' button engaged on that thing (the preset 'scoop' button), that graphic setting would still have a heck of a lot of mids in it... that's a REALLY mid punchy voiced pre to my ears. Also, I don't believe that era of Trace 410 has a tweeter, which explains the rather over the top treble boost he's using.

Except for the extreme treble boost, that's pretty much how I ran that pre back in the day with a Guild/Hartke cab, which was also in the pre tweeter era.

Sometimes EQ that looks 'scooped' (as you of course know) actually results in a relatively even response. In this case, given the mid bump in the voicing of the pre and the rather constricted range of that particular cab (if it's the 410 I'm familiar with), that EQ distribution probably muscles that tone into a reasonable imitation of 'balanced'

Total +1 to your comment on the Sadowsky pre.... nice and even sounding, and you can add or subtract mids easily by either boosting the bass control slightly, or favoring the bridge pickup slighty. I find that much more 'musical' sounding than most on board mid controls, which tend to be peaky and too extreme... IMO

Edit: Per Marcus's tone... I think that's a good example of how we all use the term 'mids' differently. While Marcus tone does have more relative bass and treble than lower mids and mid mids, he has, to my ear, a massive amount of upper midrange response which gives his bass that very aggressive and articulate grind and grit... not just the 'sizzly wizzly' of some other slap tones. It's a similar difference we've talked about between the SA410 (lot's of low mids ) versus the original 410UL... lot's of upper mids. IMO as always.

OK... back to the beautiful SA200

 

[Fuzzbass]

This is a bit besides the point, but maybe the confusion about scooping mids arises because so many cabs and some heads are voiced far from flat, with a mid or low mid bump built in. So when you hear an articulate slapping bassist with clean highs and lows it seem scooped by comparison.

Then again, maybe I'm talking out of my arse.

No, not at all. I would just say that mid bumps are from the bass, not the amp/cab. Passive basses, especially P-basses (because the split-coil pup is wired in series), are mid-heavy. Listen to recordings made in the 60's: bassists were using flats and had mid-heavy tones. Then guys like John Entwistle and Chris Squire came along... they used roundwounds and scooped their mids (or boosted bass and treble... again, same thing).

 

[JimS]

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OK, fine about the mids: flat as pancake, bumped like my mistress, or scooped like a breaking CNN story about Paris Hilton's driving..... whatever. Let's get back to the SA200!
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[KJung]

OK, fine about the mids. But back to the SA200!

+1... your approach was much better than my pathetic little line at the bottom of my last post

Enjoy that beautiful amp (which, IMO, has beautiful, articulate mids...at least for a stinkin' tube amp )

 

[Fuzzbass]

Edit: Per Marcus's tone... I think that's a good example of how we all use the term 'mids' differently. While Marcus tone does have more relative bass and treble than lower mids and mid mids, he has, to my ear, a massive amount of upper midrange response which gives his bass that very aggressive and articulate grind and grit... not just the 'sizzly wizzly' of some other slap tones. It's a similar difference we've talked about between the SA410 (lot's of low mids ) versus the original 410UL... lot's of upper mids. IMO as always.

Again, I think this gets back to semantics. Some people think "mid scooped" means "no mids". I completely disagree. Just because some players overdo the scoop and get lost in the mix, that doesn't mean mid scooping is a bad thing. To the contrary, it can be a really really good thing, especially with passive basses.

I also feel bad about the sidetrack from the wonderful SA200, but I think this is a fun discussion.

 

[JimS]

Again, I think this gets back to semantics. Some people think "mid scooped" means "no mids". I completely disagree. Just ..., but I think this is a fun discussion.

Have at it: http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showthread.php?t=353868
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In the meantime, I have to admit I have a special relationship with Sadowsky. Not a Key West condo rendevous relationship which redefines thumb and slap in the Talkbass community. But different altogether. I'm always busting Roger's cojones for a slightly different special this and that. Usually he ignores me. Story of my life. Anyway, I asked him and Koch to make a one-off SA200 that would cater to slap style playing: the perfect funk amp. Here's what they came up with:

 

[Fuzzbass]

I guess I'll hang my head in shame at being the first one to ever sidetrack an internet thread.

 

[hasbeen]

okay, okay......OK- I forgot this was a forum and statements are taken out of context. So on the first hand-
* I was sporting in my first comment .......partially.
* Secondly- Scooped mids...."clinical evidence" aside....scooped means to "take out". I.E. You scoop out some ice cream. Scoop mids doesn't mean to boost some lows and highs.
* Lastly- A slight smile curve? .....no problem. Scooping the mids......aka....pulling them all out? .......ain't going to work.

So, in closing- The amp in the pic I commented on- the knob has the mids pulled completely out!!!!!!! Ain't gonna work folks. But, you all ..already knew that. But, since this is a chat room, we have to take statements out of context and in the spirit of which they were meant.

Heck...pull out your mids. That's why we have a knob on our amp. But, don't do a slight smile curve, suck them all out. Great bedroom tone.

 

[tombowlus]

In the meantime, I have to admit I have a special relationship with Sadowsky. Not a Key West condo rendevous relationship which redefines thumb and slap in the Talkbass community. But different altogether. I'm always busting Roger's cojones for a slightly different special this and that. Usually he ignores me. Story of my life. Anyway, I asked him and Koch to make a one-off SA200 that would cater to slap style playing: the perfect funk amp. Here's what they came up with:

Nice.

 

[JimS]

My g/f called and said a large box from Roger Sadowsky arrived at the house today. The SA410 is here! I think four hundred and ten speakers in one cab is going to sound massive.
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[JimS]

IMPRESSION: SA COMPLETE PACKAGE

I thought my Kern IP 777 preamp into a Crown K2 amp and EA VL210 cab produced great results. I never thought my sound could be better. I was wrong.

The SA200 running straight into the SA410 is an experience and sensation of pure sonic beauty. I really can't believe how good it it is. It's not hype; it's real. Shockingly 3D and warm .... clear or wonderfully gritty at the player's whim. The SA200 was very good when running into my EA cab. But that 210 box eats up power like a bull shark set loose on a school of goldfish. With the SA410, the greater efficiency is appreciated and the electric bass guitar displays more clarity, separation, definition, and multi dimensional nirvana than with the Euphonic Audio cabinet. Slap and pop or fingerstyle...I hear and feel so much more: string windings, changes in finger pressure and position, dynamics. A very visceral encounter.

I am fortunate to have landed one of the last three SA200 heads at the Sadowsky shop. It's a shame the amp did not sell well enough to allow it to propagate into more homes, studios and stages. Everbody should be able to relish this ear candy.

Sadowsky Audio clearly deserves THE HOLY COW AWARD:

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