To ALL working bass players...

[dennis james]

if the band you're in is reasonably successful you will have a lot more leverage when discussing pay. it's up to the band to get to the point that they can be considered reasonably successful. if you're a band nobody has ever heard of but thinks it should be making good $$, you're going to be disappointed.

 

[AaronVonRock]

I believe the OP brought it in to the discussion. If you got gripe, tell him about it.

I don't have a gripe about anything. I'm just pointing out that using backdoor tactics to introduce one's religion into conversations is a bit tacky. Feel free to proceed. I'm not trying to stop anyone from doing it, just expressing my opinion about it.

 

[DrayMiles]

I think many take issue with OP because it reeks of the worst kind of gatekeeping. Frankly in my locale there really aren't any gig offers pouring in that pay more than 50 bucks when you are a bush league player like myself. If I turn them down I become "that band that doesn't take any gigs", but now if I accept them I'm somehow hurting my local scene? Worst still, that assertion is completely untrue. My band has brokered a good number of multi-band bills that has brought together very disparate musicians because our own style isn't easily classifiable. We've helped grow our scene. We continue to do so. Had I turned down the gigs that were offered those opportunities to network and form relationships with other bands and venue owners would never have materialized.

However, you aren't wrong. A little compassion can go a long way; I totally see where OP is coming from. In the end we should all be united by our love of the bass and of music, at least on some level.

(Full disclosure: I don't have the skills to back up anything...)

Thanks for the reply, I’m glad you explained that viewpoint to me. Much appreciated...

 

[JGbassman]

Yeah, around here, 50 bucks a guy and food would be a pretty solid gig. Again, in this market, the issue is demand as much as anything. We play a local restaurant/bar about monthly that's been doing jazz in the upstairs bar. They're scaling way back because we are the only band they aren't losing money on (not that we are so talented, we just have more friends, and our friends like booze). It's a great room, good cocktails, and i've seen some killer acts up there playing to 15 people. In a medium sized college town, we only have a handful of venues, and really only one that pays well from what I can tell. Most of the rest are set up for 2 dudes with acoustics maybe twice a month.

I'm suprised you aren't making more playing in Iowa. I've played all over the state and make 2-3 times that amount as a bare minimum, and I feel I'm at the low point of the pay scale with one cover band I work with. The other is a semi pro and makes bank working 120 minutes tops. The money is out there, especially in the Midwest. It's not like it was, but you can still pull in some good money working Thursday-Sunday if you look for it.

 

[Kickdrum]

Here's my take on the original discussion: Don't be afraid to put in the work to get people to your show, collecting phone numbers, email, starting a list, giving things away, creating a following, asking for shares, etc... Everyone can be their own manager and promoter. Not to mention a million other income streams for musicians now with the internet.

I was professional DJ for about five years in my early 20's, went on to live sound production, recording albums for bands and ultimately renting PA equipment. Musician-wise though, I've only done one paying gig and it was for exactly $50 at a divey bar South of Seattle. I got a kick out of it and was super nervous beforehand. I loved it and I would have done it for free.

My point is this: its fun! I'd play an NBA game for one night for only $50. I'd even pay for my own flight to get there. But I suck at basketball compared to anyone out there so there's no way I'd be hired. If the club or bar owner feels the same about you then you either need to work on that or work on getting your own audience there.

 

[dbsfgyd1]

I don't have a gripe about anything. I'm just pointing out that using backdoor tactics to introduce one's religion into conversations is a bit tacky. Feel free to proceed. I'm not trying to stop anyone from doing it, just expressing my opinion about it.

I’m cool with that. But let me add that the original post was basically accusing me of cutting into his income, which is a major whopper. I was just explaining why in the world I would play music without direct compensation. My apologies if I offended you or anybody else for that matter. BTW, there is a difference between faith, and religion.

 

[Mechanical]

hilarious? sometimes, although at one couple's reception, there are almost no pics of the couple as everyone took pics of their buddies and things they thought were funny in a bunch of blurry pics, which didn't seem particularly funny to me. it left them with no pics they could frame of the reception, although had they wanted to share on social media for a laugh - not every bride and groom's desire, they might have been all set.

up until recently the entire idea of having pics of your wedding wasn't to be funny - that's part of the change of using amateur photographers or wanting to show stuff that stands out on social media. yes, a pic of too little kids asleep in a chair at the reception make people go "awwww" and blurry pics of the bride tripping may make people laugh. my relative and his wife really did do it to save money, as have others i've known, and their photos in frames of the wedding tend to be less sharp and clear, and often not well lit.

btw, on dpreview there are lots of guys who are guilted by friends or relatives wanting to save money into doing wedding pics although they have neither of the experience with people photography nor the equipment to do a good job. sometimes the bride and groom are not happy about the pics despite the fact they were warned in advance, usually repeatedly.

I've seen Instagram for years. Most anyone can take a decent photograph. Just like any person with a modicum of skill can play Mustang Sally. That's why live music can be so cheap.

 

[AaronVonRock]

I’m cool with that. But let me add that the original post was basically accusing me of cutting into his income, which is a major whopper. I was just explaining why in the world I would play music without direct compensation. My apologies if I offended you or anybody else for that matter. BTW, there is a difference between faith, and religion.

Why add that last sentence? Not necessary.

 

[Pbassmanca]

Back in the day, there were gigs that paid "in exposure" My reply was. 'Exposure is what I die from when I don't pay my rent'.

Brilliant!

 

[gln1955]

Why add that last sentence? Not necessary.

Just stop it already.

 

[AaronVonRock]

Just stop it already.

???

 

[gln1955]

???

We don't need a self-appointed mod. Clear enough?

 

[AaronVonRock]

We don't need a self-appointed mod. Clear enough?

Who is we?

And why the hostility? Not necessary.

 

[Reedt2000]

Except the bars where I play metal aren’t going to hire you anyway. It is a different scene. Me playing for free doesn’t affect the type of bass player you describe. Also, we buy good equipment too. People griping about hobbyists is 100% deflection. We don’t affect you.

Just saw this and you're 100% right. There are the same sort of venues in my area that book metal bands, they would NEVER book working cover bands.

 

[mongo2]

We don't need a self-appointed mod. Clear enough?

From the posting rules: "Politics and religious debate/discussion are not allowed in any forum unless specifically allowed by the forum's posted rules ("sticky" threads)."

Clear enough?

 

[RobTheRiot]

I haven’t read all of this thread, but I read enough I believe.. if I’m repeating something someone else said, I apologize.

I think it’s sad this thread devolved into name calling, and I really hope that a lot of what was said denegrating both hobbiests and professionals was more in anger & not really how members, musicians of this forum really feel.

I think the whole thing comes down to COMMON SENSE:

If you are a young band, a hobby band, or an original band looking to play out and you play a showcase at a local venue (or nonlocal) and you don’t get paid or get paid very little, I understand that. Been there, done that. Try to get your worth, but if this is one of the few places to play, you do what you must.

The problem comes when you know a venue pays for musical acts, and you try to get in by intentionally undercutting the current acts working there. That, or when you approach a venue about creating a working situation, and deeply undercut what the local average is for paid entertainment in that size & type of venue.
(An example: soloists in my area have been getting vexed by a agent placing 2 musicians, a duo, in places and charging what is normally the cost for a solo act. This IS the problem I believe this thread is about. These and other venues paying attention now expect if they get 2 or 3 musicians for said price, then they should only have to pay a soloist 1/2 of what they had been. Carry that exponentially forward - a thoughtless act has effectively created a situation that loses money for everyone down the line.)

These clubs will and do pay attention, and will do anything to save a few bux on entertainment, no matter how profitable their club is.

It just comes down to courtesy & common sense (like a lot of things).
I will never hold it against a band for doing what they have to to get a start, get exposure, or just have fun.
In the same light, I’d like to think those bands respect that I make my living playing music, and wouldn’t intentionally enter a venue known to hire emtertainment and offer to play for free, or intentionally devalue the value that music holds for venues.

It just comes down to being aware of the venue & the situation.

We all love playing music, and should respect and encourage each other no matter what level we play at, why we play, or what style we play. C’mon... the more music the better...​

 

[Sub41]

But your "hobby" isn't helping others get paid fairly for their efforts.

Who takes up any hobby with the intent of furthering the livelihood of those who decide to take the same trade as their primary profession? I don't spend hours shedding because I think there's a chance I'm going to augment someone's musical career. I play because I love it. I work a day job because I need the money. Being a musician is hard work, but it's not necessarily lucrative. If I can get paid and fed for doing my passion, I'm going to do it without any thought given to the guy that will be looking for his next high paying gig while I'm clocked in for a regular work day in the morning.

 

[Kriegs]

yes, there are.

lots of people who originally planned to have a wedding photographer end up asking a friend to take the pics. in most cases, the friend - who often doesn't have a fast enough lens to have decent lighting or a good enough camera to get undistorted photos, is very nervous about this because they know how much they don't know about photography and that in wedding pics, there are no do-overs.

a couple years ago, a relative got married. he asked another relative and my son to do the pics. the other relative turned out to have a cheap camera with a built on slow lens. the pics were dark, distorted and dismal. my son's pics were better, but he hadn't worked indoors at all previously with the lens he used, so they weren't great. my relative and his new wife were thrilled with these pics, which is typical of the people i know who instead of getting beautifully lit, perfectly framed wedding pics opted for a buddy with a camera.

another thing being done these days is that the bride and groom or their folks buys all the guests disposable cameras and tells them all to shoot the wedding. a couple of my friends did this, and the pics were universally poor and poorly lit. i guess the important thing is that the cost of the disposable cameras was far lower than an experienced wedding photographer with pro gear including a full frame camera and a spare, great lenses, experience and talent.

You called me out for being wrong and you claimed that there are professional photographers complaining about losing work. Nowhere in your rebuttal did you give examples of professional photographers complaining about losing work. You only gave examples of people that you know lamenting their bad choices.

 

[SactoBass]

Who takes up any hobby with the intent of furthering the livelihood of those who decide to take the same trade as their primary profession?

Exactly!

I used to be a bit of a hobbyist with woodworking. I decided one day to make a pair of sub cabs for our band's PA system. They turned out great and they rocked!

Did I take away potential earnings from sub cab manufacturers? I sure did!

Do I care? I sure don't!

Are those businesses still thriving? They sure are!

 

[soulman969]

Who takes up any hobby with the intent of furthering the livelihood of those who decide to take the same trade as their primary profession? I don't spend hours shedding because I think there's a chance I'm going to augment someone's musical career. I play because I love it. I work a day job because I need the money. Being a musician is hard work, but it's not necessarily lucrative. If I can get paid and fed for doing my passion, I'm going to do it without any thought given to the guy that will be looking for his next high paying gig while I'm clocked in for a regular work day in the morning.

Based on all of what you say I don't think we're very different at all in how we approach music and paying gigs. The only difference may be our price tags.

I'm not really competing with those players who are making a living in clubs either because around here there are damn few of them left any longer if any.

My price is based on the fact that I can eat at home after the gig if I choose because I seldom if ever eat before one and I don't drink any alcohol when I gig.

So providing me with free food and four or five shift drinks isn't enticing when a venue figures them at retail value as a part of the payment we're getting.

I'll take the $30-$50 they count that as in cash please.

Just as aside. I've played many weddings and private parties where the band was fed and there was an open bar but never had to take less than our usual and customary fee for doing the gig because of it. I'm sorry but the food and drink thing is only a way for a club to trade wholesale cost for retail cash. Pay me my usual rate and if I'd like a drink or burger I'll be more than happy to pay for it at their usual rates just as I do everywhere else.

But, my honest belief as that each of us should do as we please. We have that right. What you're quoting out of context is only my stating that the poster it was directed to was confirming what the OP posted. I agree with the OP but I'm not foolish enough to believe it's gonna change the way someone else conducts their business. You all have a right to do it your way just as I have to do it mine. No one needs to get defensive about it.