To ALL working bass players...

[Pbassmanca]

Your idea of a cooperative club run by musicians is a potential answer. It is a different way of approaching the problem. Other solutions must also be found. As Gary Larson said:
Google Image Result for https://i.pinimg.com/originals/68/6f/2f/686f2ff27d96047913745c3309c5b0c1.jpg

You know it's interesting to me that in economics, which I mean to be defined as "the way people get money and then what they do with it", humans seem to have a natural inclination to protest against the idea of rendering their services whatever they might be for too little money, and that when they find themselves in this situation it occurs to them that if they were to stick together, they could come up with a mutual and cooperative solution to squeezing more money out of those that have it. I wonder why as citizens and workers, and specifically in the music industry, we don't pay any attention to this gut instinct? Ha, I've always said that if everyone hated playing their instrument, musicians would be making a lot of money...

 

[Pbassmanca]

I live in a beautiful economy where I can play 5-8 bar gigs in a normal weekend. I should probably stay out of these conversations.

For some reason, I just pictured myself full face into a big muffaletta sandwich....

 

[arbiterusa]

I absolutely refuse to blame my fellow musicians for a problem that is not of their creation. That's straight-up "blaming the victim".

Venue owners and agents have driven the price down to the point where you can't do this as your only source of income. That's not on players. That was a deliberate decision on the part of those who run those businesses. Guys are taking fifty and a cheap meal because fifty and a cheap meal is the best most can get.

Was just telling my father yesterday that back in 1987, I was booked five nights a week every week for months on end and the lowest-paying of those gigs paid more than all but the very best paying do now. I didn't have to have a day job, or welfare, and could afford a nice apartment in a nice part of town with 75% of my salary left over afterwards. Nobody gets to do that anymore, but it's not the fault of the players that things are as bad as they are today.

 

[Pbassmanca]

Someone dug up the "I love my cheap bass, you can keep your expensive basses" argument last week too. I guess with a stagnating music industry it was only a matter of time before we ran out of things to talk about.

I don't care how stagnant the music industry gets, I can always talk about the various nuances of precision bass pickups....

 

[wintremute]

I read through this whole thread, and I didn't see anyone address the Praise & Worship line. So, to add that to the mix...

OP, are you saying that if you're using your skills in church, you should get paid? Are you also saying that the greeters should get paid (they do at Wal-Mart)? The people volunteering in the nursery should get paid? If there's a cafe - then those volunteers should get paid? Nowadays church's are running security - pay them? Choir? Ushers? Information desk - you need to find out how much you should be getting paid?

 

[Bullitt5135]

Can the argument be made that the low-baller hack bands make it possible for "better" acts to make more money than the average? I mean, it's all about the bottom line. A venue may typically pay $400, but they may also occasionally pay $250 to a hack band because some hack bands draw and makes money...money that can be used the next night to pay $750 to the band with the fancy suits. There's no guarantee that the fancy band will draw and make money.

 

[kesslari]

As others have said, it's a supply and demand issue. Demand is "venues", primarily clubs and bars.
The fallacy is that supply is "bands", and that if bands would simply agree to not play for less than "X", clubs would pay "X" to bands. And thus, bands agreeing to work for "less than X" hurt their brothers and sisters.
Fact is, though, that the supply is "entertainment" (and "draw"). Much of which can be had for far less than "X".
This includes:
DJ's
Karaoke
Duo's, trios, and solo musicians (often with bandinabox accompaniment)
Games
etc etc

At one point, live music by a full band was a big draw.

As someone else said, the issue is as much with an audience that will pay $15 cover for a "Celebrity DJ" but won't pay a $5 cover to see a local band.
While we're complaining, how about movie and sports stars who start bands and get big bucks and international notice simply because they're famous?
Grumble, whine, piss, moan...

 

[mongo2]

Having moved around some, I truly feel your pain. Some towns are like that. Bunch of idiot bands playing for free (or nearly) talking a lot of mess about how they “do it for the love of the music.” No, they just suck and are rationalizing their true market value.

LOL, That looks a lot like you're trying to insult someone.

There are quite a few good bands and players here, it's just the the venues don't pay much unless you're at one of the majors/are a national or world name.

 

[Chris76]

Here's my 2 cents, not that it's worth anything (maybe in Antarctica). I see three to four different levels of players on this site. You have your hobbyist, who play for the sheer love of music. You have the amateur that will grab gigs even if they're paying in bottle caps (usually with second hand gear). Semi pros, who do the occasional studio recording and fill in for semi large venues. And then you have the pro, who plays stadiums and could care less that the amateur even knows the bass line to his material.

What I'm trying to figure out from the OP is, how my getting 50 bucks and a meal at a bar, is hurting the semi or pro levels because the claim was the industry as a WHOLE.

 

[Ronzo]

I read through this whole thread, and I didn't see anyone address the Praise & Worship line. So, to add that to the mix...

OP, are you saying that if you're using your skills in church, you should get paid? Are you also saying that the greeters should get paid (they do at Wal-Mart)? The people volunteering in the nursery should get paid? If there's a cafe - then those volunteers should get paid? Nowadays church's are running security - pay them? Choir? Ushers? Information desk - you need to find out how much you should be getting paid?

In my mainstream PCUSA denomination:
- the pastor is paid
- the organist/accompanist is paid
- in larger, richer churches, choir soloists/section leaders are paid
- the choir director/music director is a volunteer. I am he. The position is usually a paid position.

 

[Wanker_Joe]

So, you think playing for next to nothing has no adverse effect on your local music scene? Or do you just not care as lomg as YOU get to play?

I would like to answer this one with complete honesty: my only motivation for playing is that I get to play. I make my living elsewhere, so pay isn't an issue (though on principle I don't play for free or pay-to-play - $50 sounds typical of what we see). I enjoy being a weekend warrior and playing "rock star" on the weekends. So yeah, I don't care as long as I get to play.

You know what? If somebody's elite-makes-a-living-off-it band is directly competing with my band of amateur hobby players to gig at the crappy bars that pay 50 bucks a shot then I seriously question their choices. I've only been gigging for 20 years, not a lot compared to many on these boards but in all that time I've never seen anybody able to make a living by playing the dive bars that we get booked at. Since when as this been viable?

 

[saabfender]

LOL, That looks a lot like you're trying to insult someone.

There are quite a few good bands and players here, it's just the the venues don't pay much unless you're at one of the majors/are a national or world name.

You know, I was thinking what I wrote could be taken personally. No offense intended. Just speaking from experience. In smaller markets, it’s really easy for a few poor, cheap bands to poison the well. Club owners get the idea, “I only had to pay those guys half what you want.”

 

[soulman969]

Sounds like you just want to blame someone. I've played out for the last 45+ years. Nothing you or anyone else says is going to change that, and I'm going to continue doing so for as long as I can. I'm certainly never going to feel guilty about it.

Well in that regard I'd call us peers I just won't do it for free is all. Professionals typically get paid for their work.

You however may do as you wish.

It was never my intent to lay guilt. Besides no one can make you feel guilty anyway. That's all on you.

My only point was in my first sentence. You're simply confirming the OPs point. Those who do play for free or for less than a fair fee do impact others. Thank you for your contributions to the band scene.

 

[mongo2]

You however may do as you wish.

I don't need your permission.

 

[soulman969]

I don't need your permission.

Never said ya' did. I only acknowledged your desire to play as you choose. That's your right.

Mine is to criticize that if I choose to.

Ain't freedom of thought and speech a gas.

 

[GBBSbassist]

You know, I was thinking what I wrote could be taken personally. No offense intended. Just speaking from experience. In smaller markets, it’s really easy for a few poor, cheap bands to poison the well. Club owners get the idea, “I only had to pay those guys half what you want.”

There's no harm in the good band telling the club owner that they get what they pay for and you're simply worth more. If you're doing booking for a band that has a financial goal, than you're going to have to be a salesman as well.

 

[mongo2]

Never said ya' did. I only acknowledged your desire to play as you choose. That's your right.

Mine is to criticize that if I choose to.

Ain't freedom of thought and speech a gas.

You speak of freedom, then why are some here trying to restrict the freedom of others who wish to play under whatever pay or non-pay circumstances they choose?

 

[callofcthulhu]

Some thoughts of mine and a reshare of the MU's flowchart...

1. Don't be afraid to say no, or to ask what the gig pays.
2. Music students and weekend warriors: STOP taking $50 and a meal gigs. It'll hurt you in the end and KILLS our industry.
3. Don't feel guilty about saying no to a charity you don't support.
4. For the P&W guys: 'It's for ministry' DOESN'T necessarily mean you do the gig for free. The worker deserves his wages.
5. 'Exposure' will not pay your rent or put food on the table.
6. KNOW your worth.

A gig will be worth doing if it has at least 2/3 of these 'M's:

Good music
Good money
Good musicians

Still waiting on OP to deliver:

1) Who or what is MU?
2) If it's Musician's Union, shouldn't they be doing everything they can to recruit weekend warriors? Your union is useless if it's not actually composed of the workers it's supposed to be representing. You can't dictate to me the terms under which I will work if you're not securing me certain rights, privileges, and perks in exchange.
3) How exactly is an originals project supposed to find its legs in this scheme? See question 2).

 

[MobileHolmes]

It's not realistic to say that $50 is the number that applies to "Music students and weekend warriors" everywhere -- economics vary far too much across the country, to say nothing of the world. I get your point, but it's just too simplistic to say that $50 is the cutoff. Anyway, the real problem, IME, is too much supply and not enough demand.

Yeah, around here, 50 bucks a guy and food would be a pretty solid gig. Again, in this market, the issue is demand as much as anything. We play a local restaurant/bar about monthly that's been doing jazz in the upstairs bar. They're scaling way back because we are the only band they aren't losing money on (not that we are so talented, we just have more friends, and our friends like booze). It's a great room, good cocktails, and i've seen some killer acts up there playing to 15 people. In a medium sized college town, we only have a handful of venues, and really only one that pays well from what I can tell. Most of the rest are set up for 2 dudes with acoustics maybe twice a month.

 

[bobdabilder]

What's an MU? An organization that takes some of your hard earned money for very little or nothing in return?

Some thoughts of mine and a reshare of the MU's flowchart...

1. Don't be afraid to say no, or to ask what the gig pays.
2. Music students and weekend warriors: STOP taking $50 and a meal gigs. It'll hurt you in the end and KILLS our industry.
3. Don't feel guilty about saying no to a charity you don't support.
4. For the P&W guys: 'It's for ministry' DOESN'T necessarily mean you do the gig for free. The worker deserves his wages.
5. 'Exposure' will not pay your rent or put food on the table.
6. KNOW your worth.

A gig will be worth doing if it has at least 2/3 of these 'M's:

Good music
Good money
Good musicians