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To ALL working bass players...

#81
two fingers said:
No. This is simple market forces.

If there were no cheap hack bands we could all charge more for our services. And the club owners would still do fine profit wise.

I used to work in radio ad sales. There was only one privately owned radio station in our area. This guy just wanted all of his commercial slots filled. The "going rate" in our market for an ad at the time averaged out to $30 per ad run over the air. If this guy had empty slots he would sell them for $5. All that did was cause headaches for us AND HIMSELF down the road. If word gets out that you can run radio ads for $5, why would you ever pay $30..... even if the $30 ad is more effdctive? He had DEVALUED not only his own product, but ours as well.

Local hacks SO DESPARATE to play under the lights in front of people are suckers that club owners can see coming a mile away. They know you just wanna play so badly that you'll do it for next to nothing. They can smell it on you. (That doesn't mean you specifically.)

That also gives them leverage to price down great local bands as well. It makes their negotiating position that much stronger.
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Hence "Pay to play".....:banghead:
 
#88
Get over your inflated sense of entitlement. Music is not a normal business, exactly becasue people WILL do the job for free. Every musician has to realize this before they decide to make that their life's work. If a crappy band making $50 is taking a job from you, then you must not be offering enough added value to get the job at a better wage. A venue owner isn't going to pay more for no added value. If you're worth more, deliver the goods and blow away the amateurs.
 
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#89
Many variables come into play..For example.. if I’m doing a singer song writer showcase.. I might do it for free or expense money. I’m never doing a cover band gig for free..
It all depends on the situation..

When the musicians union was relavant 50 years ago. we did not have to worry about some of the things you mentioned.. there was a pay scale in place
 
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#90
TheReceder said:
How does someone get into the business if they don't start at the bottom?

Everyone has to start someplace.
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This is somewhat true generally speaking, however in respect to live music there is still a fairly robust demand across North America for this service, and in terms of the music "business", it is increasingly becoming a race to the bottom where there almost is no "top" , with the vast majority of musicians all the way from practical beginners up to a great number of highly skilled players competing across a wide field for what amounts to comparatively deflated wages. It is a wide and shallow wage pool. The difference between what a bunch of mediocre hacks can earn and what a very good band of skilled players can earn looks pretty good if you represent it as a percentage of say 100% or 200% increase in earnings based on skill level. In terms of actual dollars earned however, we might actually only be talking about the difference between $50 and $100 or $100 and $200, which given the cost of living and the amount of money flowing around out there, still makes it relatively difficult to make a reasonable living as a working musician. IMHO this also brings up the broader issue of more and more people both in the musical profession and the economy at large, working as free agents in the "gig economy". The idea that we are all, and all should be, "little business people" out there building our brand and advocating for ourselves, is the demonstrably failing to produce the desired results of rising wages and more stable employment in the music industry and beyond, and this in an economic environment of steady year over growth! Can you imagine us all showing up at local bars with the union scale information and contract that the owner had to sign to retain your services as a band? I'm trying to imagine what it would look like literally and physically getting laughed all the way down a street......:p
 
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#92
two fingers said:
If a hack trio will play for $200 it makes it kinda hard for a real band to step in and demand a grand.
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I don't necessarily disagree with this statement, but since when is $1,000 the benchmark for a "real" band? There's always going to be somebody who says if a hack trio will play for $1,000 it makes it kinda hard for a real band to step in and demand $3,500.

Around here, the standard rate for a bar & grill band is around $400. Whether you're paid $300 or $600 has little to do with your talent and everything to do with your negotiation skills. If you can't get a $400 venue to pay you more, you are either not very good at negotiating or you're simply barking up the wrong tree.

I'll add that the "real" bands around here are full-time musicians playing fancier weddings and special events, casinos, corporate events, and festival main stages (the person writing the check has no idea that there are bands who will play for $100 per man). These bands would never get caught dead in even the nicer places I play.
 
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#94
I think a lot of this stems from mostly older musicians that put their time in. They’ve learned their chops, often very technical music like jazz.

Well the older crowd is getting older. Time rolls on. Demographics change. I’m sure it’s very frustrating to get bumped out of a weekend spot only to discover the club booked a thrashy basic 90’s tribute band cause the owners know They’ll pack the place.

You can only accept it or look for a different venue. Music should bring us together. Let it cause you can’t prevent the transformation we’re witnessing.
 
#95
I am a musician. It is not something I chose to be... I am, and so I must choose how I deal with that. My choice: I play music. It's what I do. Sometimes people pay, sometimes not. But I choose to play, and so I will. I've known many people who were musicians and play only from time to time at home, or perhaps they quit cold turkey, or became teachers and do the best they can to keep playing. Anyway, if you are a musician, you know it, and you have to deal with it.

And BTW, it's not taking non-paying gigs that is 'destroying' the market, it's musicians who are unprepared, and unprofessional. Yes, you did work hard to learn an instrument, but the world doesn't owe you a living because of it. More than likely the non-musician you are trying to get more money from has a skill they worked hard to perfect... they know what that is all about, they just don't know music, just like you may not know plumbing or code writing. And, btw, they look at you as a little crazy for thinking you can support yourself, or even part of your life, but playing weddings and bars.
 
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#96
Following that flow chart would result in ZERO gigs until you reach a certain level in my experience. Everything changed around 15 years ago when people started stealing music online. Most people don't consider music to have any value anymore. They expect to get it for free, or at least practically for free. Including live music, unless we're talking about big artists. Musicians have very little bargaining power these days, at least until they reach a certain level of commercial success.

So while I applaud the general idea of that flow chart I also think it's utopia and not a very realistic approach for many musicians these days.

I should probably add that my definition of playing for "free" extends to poorly paid gigs that won't cover food/travel expenses and leave a decent enough profit to make a living after everyone elses cut has been deducted (record company, manager, booking agent, etc.). So in my opinion that flow chart doesn't really tell the whole story unless "free" is changed to "a fee that you can make a living from when ALL expenses have been covered".
 
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#97
Where I'm at it's less about the massive amounts of musicians and more about the huge decline of venues.

Most of the quality bands have musicians in the 45-55 year old range. There's not a lot of younger bands, because there's not a lot of places for them to play. My guess is that being in a band is akin to having a cord on your phone.

In the end the DJ scene is what really impacts the musicians.
 
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#98
TheReceder said:
How does someone get into the business if they don't start at the bottom?

Everyone has to start someplace.
Click to expand...

Start-up bands aren't the problem. They either get better (and charge more) or quit in relatively quick order.

No. It's hobby bands wearing cargo shorts and tucked in Tshirts playing awful versions of mostly awful songs year after year for next to nothing because they want to take their hobby out of the garage and don't care who or what it hurts.

Start-up bands aren't the issue.

I'm in a start-up band. We'll stay in the garage before we sell our product for $50 a head. It's the principle. You're not getting our collective decades of experience, talent, and gear for next to nothing. Period.

My ego is not so huge that I NEED to play in front of an audience so much as to devalue my band to make it happen.
 
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#100
two fingers said:
No. It's hobby bands wearing cargo shorts and tucked in Tshirts playing awful versions of mostly awful songs year after year for next to nothing because they want to take their hobby out of the garage and don't care who or what it hurts.
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Surely you are better than them, so why can't you sell yourselves as being the better economic option for a venue?
 
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