Pbassmanca
In the pocket n' thumpy. So woody, so greasy...
Haha, and conversely I look at people who own clubs and bars and think they're a bit crazy for thinking they can support themselves by owning one!
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To ALL working bass players...
- Thread starter soong
- Start date
Agreed
Would you rather pay a 4-piece band @ $ 400 to play maybe 40 songs or pay DJ $200 who can potentially download Anything ; no band mate issues: tardiness , equip set up, spousal and relationship issues , drug n alcohol issues
I play and prefer live music but the math doesn’t support our cause
Either the crowd prefers live music or doesn’t but as far as paying ? Sadly a DJ makes a better argument
Started out playing “Goodbye. Off to Vietnam.” parties in the mid 60s when I was in my early teens. One mic between everyone, vocals through the guitar amps. I sucked. WE sucked. I learned not to suck as bad. Started to learn my craft. Made $100 per party, split 4 ways.
A year or two later, started to play fraternity and sorority parties. Still had no money for a “good” instrument and amp, and no PA system. The Beatles had played Shea Stadium with a 100 watt Bogen PA, so there was little expectation of much more. I still sucked, but not as badly. I learned how to work a crowd. Made $300 per party, split 4 ways.
Got to the age where I could play local bars in the suburbs and outer boroughs of NYC. I could actually play at this point, and so could the people I played with. Bar gigs paid $100 per man. Got 2 or 3 such gigs most weeks. Gas was about 36 cents a gallon, just as an economic reference.
Got married - too young - and left the business. Had kids, had a second job photographing weddings. Saw very professional wedding bands all the time. The office for these wedding bands got $2,500 to $3,000 per gig. Sidemen were making $200 to $500 per gig, depending upon skill. This was during the 70s, 80s, and early 90s.
Then everything changed. DJs started appearing - first at lower-end affairs, with just a sound system and poor showmanship skills. They were learning their craft. They worked cheap. Then, a few bright people invested in huge, high-quality sound systems, and brought dancers with them to the affairs to interact with the guests. They developed excellent showmanship skills. They put a serious hurt on the wedding band business that continues to this day.
DJs killed the bar business, too. Bar owners found that as long as the music was loud and people continued to drink and pay, they could pay a DJ 1/4 to 1/3 what a decent cover band would ask, and get the same volume of business. Cover bands either cut their price, or stopped playing. After my kids got older, I got into a band that used sequences to fill the sound out, playing and singing live with the MIDI stuff. Moderately successful; we averaged $150 per man, plus $50 to the band equipment fund, and gigged 2 or 3 times a month.
This long-winded history lesson illustrates our problems as musicians. We can either work for the same wage as we did 50 years ago, adapt and change the gigs we seek, or quit. Quitting isn’t really an option. Musicians PERFORM. We need to do it as we need to breathe. It’s innate.
But very few can support a family doing it. The joke is true:
“What’s the difference between a musician and a large pizza?”
“A large pizza can FEED a family of four.”
A year or two later, started to play fraternity and sorority parties. Still had no money for a “good” instrument and amp, and no PA system. The Beatles had played Shea Stadium with a 100 watt Bogen PA, so there was little expectation of much more. I still sucked, but not as badly. I learned how to work a crowd. Made $300 per party, split 4 ways.
Got to the age where I could play local bars in the suburbs and outer boroughs of NYC. I could actually play at this point, and so could the people I played with. Bar gigs paid $100 per man. Got 2 or 3 such gigs most weeks. Gas was about 36 cents a gallon, just as an economic reference.
Got married - too young - and left the business. Had kids, had a second job photographing weddings. Saw very professional wedding bands all the time. The office for these wedding bands got $2,500 to $3,000 per gig. Sidemen were making $200 to $500 per gig, depending upon skill. This was during the 70s, 80s, and early 90s.
Then everything changed. DJs started appearing - first at lower-end affairs, with just a sound system and poor showmanship skills. They were learning their craft. They worked cheap. Then, a few bright people invested in huge, high-quality sound systems, and brought dancers with them to the affairs to interact with the guests. They developed excellent showmanship skills. They put a serious hurt on the wedding band business that continues to this day.
DJs killed the bar business, too. Bar owners found that as long as the music was loud and people continued to drink and pay, they could pay a DJ 1/4 to 1/3 what a decent cover band would ask, and get the same volume of business. Cover bands either cut their price, or stopped playing. After my kids got older, I got into a band that used sequences to fill the sound out, playing and singing live with the MIDI stuff. Moderately successful; we averaged $150 per man, plus $50 to the band equipment fund, and gigged 2 or 3 times a month.
This long-winded history lesson illustrates our problems as musicians. We can either work for the same wage as we did 50 years ago, adapt and change the gigs we seek, or quit. Quitting isn’t really an option. Musicians PERFORM. We need to do it as we need to breathe. It’s innate.
But very few can support a family doing it. The joke is true:
“What’s the difference between a musician and a large pizza?”
“A large pizza can FEED a family of four.”
With all due respect, if your band as good as you've implied, I don't buy that this type of band hurts your earning potential in any way. If you wear fancy clothes and have a really superior song list of uber-cool tunes, why would you set foot inside a venue that hires this type of hack band? Surely there are venues in your area that pay a premium for top-notch acts? It's a different ecosystem. If all those so-called hack bands disappeared tomorrow, do you really think those low-rent venues would all the sudden pay 3X more than their business model allows? I think they'd be more likely to just turn up the house music and not have to deal with the hassle of wrangling bands.
Very true! My friend who is a full-time career musician spends all day teaching and doing studio work. Then he hustles like crazy to keep his gig calendar full. Frankly, he could cafe less if I get $50 a gig or $250, because it has nothing to do with him at all. He's in a different world, even though we play a lot of the same songs.
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Why do some of you guys have such a "screw you" reply to the thought s of the OP? To those of us who have done this professionally or semi pro, the points are valid. But, is it necessary to "puff yourselves up" by saying basically, "screw you, I'll play for nothing if I feel like it." It just seems that the sheen/facade of bass camaraderie
is smeared with that type of reply. I can only hope your playing skills warrant such testosterone driven drivel.
A little consideration, despite anonymity via the internet, wouldn't be out of order.
Just an observation...
Oh, and before someone inquires about my skillset or some other similar response. You'd be advised to look up my profile. All I'll do is smile... Diplomatically... That is...
Hmm...
But then again, whatever makes you happy...
is smeared with that type of reply. I can only hope your playing skills warrant such testosterone driven drivel.
A little consideration, despite anonymity via the internet, wouldn't be out of order.
Just an observation...
Oh, and before someone inquires about my skillset or some other similar response. You'd be advised to look up my profile. All I'll do is smile... Diplomatically... That is...
Hmm...
But then again, whatever makes you happy...
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This is a very important distinction. There is a bar in my town where we play and it's packed, done, at about 60 people. They are *never* going to be able to pay $400/$500 to a band to play there.
Also, there will *always* be a band willing to do it for $200, or even $150. And a duo willing to do it for $100.
Pbassmanca
In the pocket n' thumpy. So woody, so greasy...
I know what you're saying man, there's more than one way to skin a cat though. Charging a nominal door fee can help offset the cost of paying the band but other than that the club has to make a profit on the night that the band is there or else they're not going to see it as a long-term solution. It's interesting when you read different TalkBass threads and you see posts about guys who were gigging in the hay days of rock and roll in the 60s and 70s. Probably the supply-demand factor played a big part in determining the price back then just like it does now. The problem is conjecture doesn't really tell you the whole truth about the story. You'd have to have all kinds of statistics to make a determination about how people are getting paid in music today compared to how they were getting paid in music back then if you wanted to make a study of it. Things like sales numbers, the price of drinks and food, the price of gear, the average wage of the time, the average price of a basket of goods and the cost of living, and other things like the number of actual working musicians playing out, and also the overall demand in the number of Clubs and bars seeking live bands compared to today. In my humble opinion that's just some of the things you'd have to calculate in order to see where we really are at today. (CONJECTURE WARNING) One small example, is that I've heard many people say back in the day you could get hired out for a four or five piece band to play 5 - 7 nights for $1500. Now of course this is anecdotal and I do not have experience from that time period, but I just went on an inflation calculator which told me that $1,500 in 1970 had approximately the same purchasing power as over $9,800 today. So assuming there is some truth to all of this, at that rate today I could bring a five-piece band into a club for 6 nights straight and pay everyone $326 a piece every night. Now that is a wage you can live on! The only caveat here, is in which imaginary town or city today can you find a venue where they need one band that'll get people up dancing and drinking six nights a week straight and would be willing to pay them 10 grand .....?
Negatory........
I can't argue with your assessment, but I also believe that if we took the proverbial bull by the horns, we'd be able to negotiate better deals for ourselves, instead of taking what we're given like paupers. Something along the lines of a few bands renting a venue and paying for the staff, or doing house gigs and keeping costs down.
There are far fewer venues available to hone your skills as a musician and showman now than there were 50 years ago. The quality of recorded music systems and the audiences’ acceptance of them has seen to that.
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There is truth in the $1500 per week, plus food etc. I called it the Holiday Inn circuit. Also, back in Atlanta Ga. in the 80's, the Underground had various venues that would book bands every weekend. Now, I'm not sure what is relative to way back then... regarding gigs. The older musos like Eddie Floyd and Freda Payne went into Europe or Vegas. It seems that people like that are finding themselves on the festival circuit. It may be called a "Jazz" festival, but there are usually fewer and fewer Jazz artists performing.I know what you're saying man, there's more than one way to skin a cat though. Charging a nominal door fee can help offset the cost of paying the band but other than that the club has to make a profit on the night that the band is there or else they're not going to see it as a long-term solution. It's interesting when you read different TalkBass threads and you see posts about guys who were gigging in the hay days of rock and roll in the 60s and 70s. Probably the supply-demand factor played a big part in determining the price back then just like it does now. The problem is conjecture doesn't really tell you the whole truth about the story. You'd have to have all kinds of statistics to make a determination about how people are getting paid in music today compared to how they were getting paid in music back then if you wanted to make a study of it. Things like sales numbers, the price of drinks and food, the price of gear, the average wage of the time, the average price of a basket of goods and the cost of living, and other things like the number of actual working musicians playing out, and also the overall demand in the number of Clubs and bars seeking live bands compared to today. In my humble opinion that's just some of the things you'd have to calculate in order to see where we really are at today. (CONJECTURE WARNING) One small example, is that I've heard many people say back in the day you could get hired out for a four or five piece band to play 5 - 7 nights for $1500. Now of course this is anecdotal and I do not have experience from that time period, but I just went on an inflation calculator which told me that $1,500 in 1970 had approximately the same purchasing power as over $9,800 today. So assuming there is some truth to all of this, at that rate today I could bring a five-piece band into a club for 6 nights straight and pay everyone $326 a piece every night. Now that is a wage you can live on! The only caveat here, is in which imaginary town or city today can you find a venue where they need one band that'll get people up dancing and drinking six nights a week straight and would be willing to pay them 10 grand .....?
Your idea of a cooperative club run by musicians is a potential answer. It is a different way of approaching the problem. Other solutions must also be found. As Gary Larson said:
Google Image Result for https://i.pinimg.com/originals/68/6f/2f/686f2ff27d96047913745c3309c5b0c1.jpg
The walnut analogy... Hmmm,
I honestly think we could replace the guy at the podium and add a musician... With the joke remaining intact. Thanks, that made me smile...
Am I a working bass player? I reported earnings from playing my bass, to the IRS last year... so yes.
Just offered a $50 and a meal gig. The guy I back up said he'd just do it solo because that's pay for one guy, not a duo. I told him I liked his line of thinking. Considering we have a steady gig down the road that pays for two musicians, or three if we add a drummer.
Don't sell yourself short.
You'll learn what gigs to take and what gigs to pass on.
Just offered a $50 and a meal gig. The guy I back up said he'd just do it solo because that's pay for one guy, not a duo. I told him I liked his line of thinking. Considering we have a steady gig down the road that pays for two musicians, or three if we add a drummer.
Don't sell yourself short.
You'll learn what gigs to take and what gigs to pass on.
Someone dug up the "I love my cheap bass, you can keep your expensive basses" argument last week too. I guess with a stagnating music industry it was only a matter of time before we ran out of things to talk about.
Pbassmanca
In the pocket n' thumpy. So woody, so greasy...
The reality is we are in an industry struggling to survive. I've said this here before: it takes more than decent gear and a good chops to make it as a musician. It's an incredibly tough industry to break into, so you have to be really shrewd (and pretty lucky, too).
If you want to earn a good living as a musician, you have to play guitar, keys, drums, and bass, as well as DJing on off nights. You have to be able to play any genre confidently. In my own time, I listen to punk and hardcore music, yet taking jazz gigs have made me good money in bars Tuesdays-Thursdays. I've picked up country gigs, though I really loathe country music. I have done studio work for latin and Caribbean artists, weekend warrior vanity projects, hip-hop artists, r&b singers, you name it.
You can't cry about not being successful if you're still sticking with antiquated classic rock standards and masturbatory progressive rock sets. You have to play music and put on a show that people want to hear and see. To quote one of my all time favorite movie characters:
If you want to earn a good living as a musician, you have to play guitar, keys, drums, and bass, as well as DJing on off nights. You have to be able to play any genre confidently. In my own time, I listen to punk and hardcore music, yet taking jazz gigs have made me good money in bars Tuesdays-Thursdays. I've picked up country gigs, though I really loathe country music. I have done studio work for latin and Caribbean artists, weekend warrior vanity projects, hip-hop artists, r&b singers, you name it.
You can't cry about not being successful if you're still sticking with antiquated classic rock standards and masturbatory progressive rock sets. You have to play music and put on a show that people want to hear and see. To quote one of my all time favorite movie characters:
If whoever wrote that chart only gets playing gigs in every market playing their own material, then they need to write a book and tell us how they did it. Apparently they are magical beings.
