Zon basses - is everything OK ?

[Jugghaid]

Is there somewhere a consumer can check if a business has small claims courts judgements against them?

Judgments are public records so you can check with the court systems. Also a Dunn & Bradstreet report may or may not show that information. Generally each court maintains their own records so you would need to know where the case was filed. Also public record compilation databases such as Lexis Nexis/Accurint may have this info but those are subscription services.

 

[kesslari]

Closed for review.

 

[foothilla]

Closed for review.

With all due respect, I know you love Zon basses, and so do I. But I'd humbly request that you and some of the others put your bias aside and look at this fairly. There are a small handful of people who have waited 5+ years for delivery of their merchandise. One guy has been waiting 5-ish years for repair work. These people should understand that they do have legal recourse.

As much as we all champion the quality of Zon basses, we should champion fair business practices even more.

 

[kesslari]

With all due respect, I know you love Zon basses, and so do I. But I'd humbly request that you and some of the others put your bias aside and look at this fairly. There are a small handful of people who have waited 5+ years for delivery of their merchandise. One guy has been waiting 5-ish years for repair work. These people should understand that they do have legal recourse.

As much as we all champion the quality of Zon basses, we should champion fair business practices even more.

This is not about defending Zon. I gave that up a few years ago after briefly believing that creating this thread would get people their overdue basses quickly. It did not. I feel as disappointed in and disgusted by that as anyone here.

This is about the fact that "take legal action" has been discussed in this thread at length and seriously considered by those who have long-overdue basses, and dismissed as not likely to yield positive results (refunds or basses). New posters bringing it up again does not add to the value of the thread, does not provide a new idea for those who have suffered harm. It does serve a "why haven't you idiots thought of this in 97 pages of discussion?" message to the participants.

 

[foothilla]

This is not about defending Zon. I gave that up a few years ago after briefly believing that creating this thread would get people their overdue basses quickly. It did not. I feel as disappointed in and disgusted by that as anyone here.

This is about the fact that "take legal action" has been discussed in this thread at length and seriously considered by those who have long-overdue basses, and dismissed as not likely to yield positive results (refunds or basses). New posters bringing it up again does not add to the value of the thread, does not provide a new idea for those who have suffered harm. It does serve a "why haven't you idiots thought of this in 97 pages of discussion?" message to the participants.

I didn't call anyone "idiots." The court system can be incredibly convoluted and overwhelming to people. And rightfully so when lawyers are involved and there is subjectivity involved in a case (child custody, discrimination cases, property disputes, etc.). But in a small dollar case, where it is as simple as "I paid and never received my merchandise", the small claims system is actually incredibly easy to navigate. This is a surprise to most people who have never been to small claims court. What I added to the 97 pages is that I have been through this, for something very similar, and I wanted to let others know that it is not as overwhelming as they may think.

Some level of redundancy is common in any 50+ page talkbass thread. Admittedly I may have missed it, but I don't think anyone made the point that I was making, with California small claims experience as a reference point. If they did, please note where, and I will gladly apologize. All I'm seeking is for people to be treated fairly. I would love to see Joe Zon redeem himself and continue making great basses, while employing morally sound business practices.

 

[MJ5150]

With all due respect, I know you love Zon basses, and so do I. But I'd humbly request that you and some of the others put your bias aside and look at this fairly. There are a small handful of people who have waited 5+ years for delivery of their merchandise. One guy has been waiting 5-ish years for repair work. These people should understand that they do have legal recourse.

As much as we all champion the quality of Zon basses, we should champion fair business practices even more.

Threads are not opened and closed based on the moderators personal opinion on the matter. That was a mistake for you to conclude otherwise.
The thread was closed so the volunteer moderating team could take a look at the thread to determine if the back and forth about the judicial system in the USA was out of bounds. It wasn't, so the thread was reopened while allowing those involved to take a break and cool their jets.
Public discussion of moderation is not allowed at TalkBass. This has gone far enough and will not continue in the thread. If there are further moderator matters you feel require discussion, you are welcome to do so via a private message.

-Mike

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

Public discussion of moderation is not allowed at TalkBass. This has gone far enough and will not continue in the thread. If there are further moderator matters you feel require discussion, you are welcome to do so via a private message.

-Mike

Or at the Help Desk, which can be reached via the “Contact Us” link at the bottom of any forum page.

 

[ShadowGroover]

. . in a small dollar case, where it is as simple as "I paid and never received my merchandise", the small claims system is actually incredibly easy to navigate. This is a surprise to most people who have never been to small claims court.

Sure, that can be an easy journey with an encouraging result. The greater challenge and difficulty usually arises in collecting judgement funds. That can range from nearly impossible to no chance at all.

In order to navigate this process consult an attorney prior to filing small claims, so the judgement collection component can be learned, then becoming part of the small-claims case and adjudication.

Winning the case can be simple. Collecting the awarded judgment amount is the true challenge.

 

[Fuzzbass]

Sure, that can be an easy journey with an encouraging result. The greater challenge and difficulty usually arises in collecting judgement funds. That can range from nearly impossible to no chance at all.

Exactly. Two friends who went to small claims court regretted taking that route. Separate cases: each won their decision, but neither was able to collect from their deadbeat defendant. Angus and others here have had similar experiences.

This is not to say that small claims court doesn't work -- it can. Point is that there are two phases: winning the decision, and collecting compensation. Bigger point: it's completely understandable why some don't want to throw good money after bad -- time being money, of course.

 

[foothilla]

Exactly. Two friends who went to small claims court regretted taking that route. Separate cases: each won their decision, but neither was able to collect from their deadbeat defendant. Angus and others here have had similar experiences.

This is not to say that small claims court doesn't work -- it can. Point is that there are two phases: winning the decision, and collecting compensation. Bigger point: it's completely understandable why some don't want to throw good money after bad -- time being money, of course.

It cost less than $100 to file a small claims case in California, and it takes about 20-minutes to fill out the paperwork. That is nothing, relative to losing $4000+. In addition, you add the filing fee and your time compensation to your claim.

Seriously, the people trying to discourage the small claims process are heavily biased, in my opinion. They don't want anything bad to happen to Joe Zon, because they love his products. They'd rather have people get ripped off than have a shakeup at Zon's shop.

 

[foothilla]

The greater challenge and difficulty usually arises in collecting judgement funds. That can range from nearly impossible to no chance at all.

And to be accurate, for any of you considering small claims action, the real range is: Very simple, to no chance at all.

It all depends on the status of the business, which in Zon's case is fully functional and in production mode. This doom and gloom "you'll never get your money" is biased and inaccurate.

 

[Jugghaid]

Seriously, the people trying to discourage the small claims process are heavily biased, in my opinion. They don't want anything bad to happen to Joe Zon, because they love his products. They'd rather have people get ripped off than have a shakeup at Zon's shop.

Yeah, that's some straight up BS right there. And I don't think anyone is discouraging them, just letting them no that is can be nowhere near as simple as you are making it out to be. Your one small claims lawsuit against someone who eventually settled is just that. One small claims lawsuit.

I would love it if everyone who has been wronged in this thread sued Zon and got every penny they are owed. But they need to know what they are up against and how to proceed. There are a ton of variables and they need to know how to deal with those. You are giving them bad information based on your own singular experience. Please stop doing so. If people want to proceed with any type of legal action, my advice is to get legal advice from a legal professional that actually knows what they are doing and/ or do a bunch of reading beforehand. Not get advice from some random dude on a bass forum who sued a cabinet maker x years ago.

Who knows, Zon may respond and immediately pay up. Probably not based on the info in this thread but... It's worth a shot. I would have taken action years ago if I was some of these people who got suckered. I wouldn't just let $4000 or so go. But they need REAL information to do so.

 

[foothilla]

Yeah, that's some straight up BS right there. And I don't think anyone is discouraging them, just letting them no that is can be nowhere near as simple as you are making it out to be. Your one small claims lawsuit against someone who eventually settled is just that. One small claims lawsuit.

I would love it if everyone who has been wronged in this thread sued Zon and got every penny they are owed. But they need to know what they are up against and how to proceed. There are a ton of variables and they need to know how to deal with those. You are giving them bad information based on your own singular experience. Please stop doing so. If people want to proceed with any type of legal action, my advice is to get legal advice from a legal professional that actually knows what they are doing and/ or do a bunch of reading beforehand. Not get advice from some random dude on a bass forum who sued a cabinet maker x years ago.

Who knows, Zon may respond and immediately pay up. Probably not based on the info in this thread but... It's worth a shot. I would have taken action years ago if I was some of these people who got suckered. I wouldn't just let $4000 or so go. But they need REAL information to do so.

Do a google search on the California small claims case results. You'll quickly see that the majority of them are settle after filing, and before they even get to court.

If someone is bankrupted, and has nothing, then yes, you'll probably have a tough time getting your money. But that is not the case with Zon. Zon has over 3-decades of success selling high end instruments. Their shop is currently open, and they are currently delivering $4500 basses to customers.

It cost me $70 to file my small claims case, and it took 20 minutes of paperwork. The case itself lasted 15 minutes. In this case, you'd simply present proof of payment, and emails showing that your promises went unfulfilled and that you never received your merchandise. No lawyers, no BS, with minimal time and money invested.

The overwhelming response to this conversation has been, "a small claims case will take a bunch of time and money, and you'll never get your money back." This is fallacious and unnecessarily discouraging to people who were wronged. The pessimistic discouragement has no other logical motive that I can see, if not an attempt to defend and protect Zon.

 

[Jugghaid]

Do a google search on the California small claims case results. You'll quickly see that the majority of them are settle after filing, and before they even get to court.

If someone is bankrupted, and has nothing, then yes, you'll probably have a tough time getting your money. But that is not the case with Zon. Zon has over 3-decades of success selling high end instruments. Their shop is currently open, and they are currently delivering $4500 basses to customers.

It cost me $70 to file my small claims case, and it took 20 minutes of paperwork. The case itself lasted 15 minutes. In this case, you'd simply present proof of payment, and emails showing that your promises went unfulfilled and that you never received your merchandise. No lawyers, no BS, with minimal time and money invested.

The overwhelming response to this conversation has been, "a small claims case will take a bunch of time and money, and you'll never get your money back." This is fallacious and unnecessarily discouraging to people who were wronged. The pessimistic discouragement has no other logical motive that I can see, if not an attempt to defend and protect Zon.

You're wrong.

The vast majority of cases WHERE AN ANSWER IS FILED are settled prior to trial. (this may include stipulated agreements that are never fulfilled) Over 80% of cases never have an answer filed and a default judgment is awarded. Judges don't want small claims cases to go to trail so IF AN ANSWER IS FILED BY THE DEFENDANT they make every effort to have it settled prior to trial. This includes court ordered settlement conferences, mediation, etc. if they can't come to an agreement.

from the Stanford law review:

https://review.law.stanford.edu/wp-content/uploads/sites/3/2024/04/Engstrom-Engstrom-75-Stan.-L.-Rev.-Online-146.pdf

11. See, e.g., Peter A. Holland, Junk Justice: A Statistical Analysis of 4,400 Lawsuits Filed by DebtBuyers, 26 LOY. CONSUMER L. REV. 179, 208, 210 (2014) (reviewing 4,400 debt collectioncases and reporting that, of the roughly 3,000 consumers who were properly served,85% did not file a response, 13% filed a pro se response, and 2% had counsel); PEWCHARITABLE TRS., supra note 10, at 16 (reporting that “more than 70% of debt cases endin default judgments”); VICTOR GEMINIANI, JENNIFER F. CHIN & ISAIAH FELDMANSCHWARTZ, LAWS. FOR EQUAL JUST., EVICTED IN HAWAII: LIVES HANGING IN THEBALANCE 24 (2018) (reporting a 45% default judgment rate in Hawaii eviction cases

That's not a bad thing though. If you get a default judgment you can then start attaching assets (if there are any) You stated earlier in this thread that you could just Garnish Joe Zon's wages, and that they have assets as they are a functioning business and that he would be worried about his credit rating. All of this is based on very incorrect assumptions.

1. First you have to decide who you are going to sue. Are you suing Joe Zon? Are you suing Zon Guitars. Is Zon guitars an LLC, Sole Proprietorship, C Corp, S Corp,? If it's a corporate entity and not a DBA or Sole Proprietorship, you would need to Sue Zon Guitars, not Joe Zon Personally. You can't attach personal assets for an individual if your judgment is against the entity. Chances are great that it is probably an LLC. So now you have to serve the registered agent for the LLC. Is that Joe? His attorney? The corporation company (or one of many other filing agencies)? Assuming you get the appropriate party served by a disinterested 3rd part (people have been know to duck service for a long time) now you can get a court date known as a return date. And you can start the process of obtaining a judgement against the company (which is who legally owes you because that is who you paid).

2. Lets assume you do sue the business owner personally as well as the corporate entity. You get a judgment against both (chances are this won't happen because your dispute is with the company). You try and garnish his wages. How exactly do you think that is gonna work? He owns the company. He can just ignore the garnishment.

3. Post judgment.... You say you can just attach his assets such as his equipment. Well, you can't just walk in an take his CNC machine or tools. Do you even know how to execute a sheriff's sale to auction off his equipment? What you may have luck with is filing a bank levy. You would need to find out his banking information. There are ways to do that. However, you have to serve the bank and the registered agent of the company of the levy and the company would need to have money in that bank account when you serve the bank. How are you going to make sure the $ is in there first? Banks will not verify funds with third parties under almost any circumstances. So you spank his bank account and all of your money isn't there. Or maybe none of it based on his business practices. Now he knows you have his banking information. Think he's not gonna move money?

4. There are other things that can be done. Court ordered interrogatories are an option and failure to fill those out can result in a contempt citation etc....There are people who specialize in performing asset investigations and attaching those assets. I was one of them for over 20 years and was responsible for filling tens of thousands of lawsuits over that time period. I managed a nationwide team of over 200 attorneys for the largest privately held debt buyer in the country as one of my jobs. Several thousand lawsuits per month in over 40 states. I have been through all of this on a daily bases for years and years.


Point is, you don't even know what you don't know. So please stop posting advice based on your extremely limited one time experience where the person actually showed up and made things right.. You are not helping the people who need help. Again, I would advise they speak to a legal professional.

I agree that they could (and should, IMO) seek legal recourse. I know I would have. And I understand that you are trying to be helpful, and I appreciate that. I really do. But you are putting out a lot of misinformation.

 

[foothilla]

You're wrong.

The vast majority of cases WHERE AN ANSWER IS FILED are settled prior to trial. (this may include stipulated agreements that are never fulfilled) Over 80% of cases never have an answer filed and a default judgment is awarded. Judges don't want small claims cases to go to trail so IF AN ANSWER IS FILED BY THE DEFENDANT they make every effort to have it settled prior to trial. This includes court ordered settlement conferences, mediation, etc. if they can't come to an agreement.

from the Stanford law review:

https://review.law.stanford.edu/wp-content/uploads/sites/3/2024/04/Engstrom-Engstrom-75-Stan.-L.-Rev.-Online-146.pdf

That's not a bad thing though. If you get a default judgment you can then start attaching assets (if there are any) You stated earlier in this thread that you could just Garnish Joe Zon's wages, and that they have assets as they are a functioning business and that he would be worried about his credit rating. All of this is based on very incorrect assumptions.

1. First you have to decide who you are going to sue. Are you suing Joe Zon? Are you suing Zon Guitars. Is Zon guitars an LLC, Sole Proprietorship, C Corp, S Corp,? If it's a corporate entity and not a DAB or Sole Proprietorship, you would need to Sue Zon Guitars, not Joe Zon Personally. You can't attach personal assets for an individual if your judgment is against the entity. Chances are great that it is probably an LLC. So now you have to serve the registered agent for the LLC. Is that Joe? His attorney? The corporation company (or one of many other filing agencies)? Assuming you get the appropriate party served by a disinterested 3rd part (people have been know to duck service for a long time) now you can get a court date known as a return date. And you can start the process of obtaining a judgement against the company (which is who legally owes you because that is who you paid).

2. Lets assume you do sue the business owner personally as well as the corporate entity. You get a judgment against both (chances are this won't happen because your dispute is with the company). You try and garnish his wages. How exactly do you think that is gonna work? He owns the company. He can just ignore the garnishment.

3. Post judgment.... You say you can just attach his assets such as his equipment. Well, you can't just walk in an take his CNC machine or tools. Do you even know how to execute a sheriff's sale to auction off his equipment? What you may have luck with is filing a bank levy. You would need to find out his banking information. There are ways to do that. However, you have to serve the bank and the registered agent of the company of the levy and the company would need to have money in that bank account when you serve the bank. How are you going to make sure the $ is in there first? Banks will not verify funds with third parties under almost any circumstances. So you spank his bank account and all of your money isn't there. Or maybe none of it based on his business practices. Now he knows you have his banking information. Think he's not gonna move money?

4. There are other things that can be done. Court ordered interrogatories are an option and failure to fill those out can result in a contempt citation etc....There are people who specialize in performing asset investigations and attaching those assets. I was one of them for over 20 years and was responsible for filling tens of thousands of lawsuits over that time period. I managed a nationwide team of over 200 attorneys for the largest privately held debt buyer in the country as one of my jobs. Several thousand lawsuits per month in over 40 states. I have been through all of this on a daily bases for years and years.


Point is, you don't even know what you don't know. So please stop posting advice based on your extremely limited one time experience where the person actually showed up and made things right.. You are not helping the people who need help. Again, I would advise they speak to a legal professional.

I agree that they could (and should, IMO) seek legal recourse. I know I would have. And I understand that you are trying to be helpful, and I appreciate that. I really do. But you are putting out a lot of misinformation.

You're convoluting a simple case. You're suing Zon Guitars. As an operation with just a few employees, this falls back to Joe personally, regardless of how the business is structured. If it's an LLC, S Corp, or C Corp it just means you can't go after Joe's personal property (such as his house). It would be unlikely to be an S-corp or a C-corp. It might be an LLC, but that would also be an odd way to structure this type of business. In any event, if it's structured as an LLC or Corp, that simply means that you would be limited to going after his business holdings.

This is a simple case of "paid and never received" merchandise. This doesn't involve "debt-buyers" (which is your experience), and there is no "answer to file" when you took someone's money and failed to deliver the promised merchandise.

Zon took money and didn't deliver. It's cut and dried, he would lose this case. Your ability to recoup is dependent on assets. Zon either has assets or doesn't. It takes a 30-minute time investment and less than $100 to find out if you are likely to get your $4000 back. The reasonable response to this conversation is, "it will only take a tiny bit of money and a tiny bit of time to see where you stand." Not one person in this thread has tried, but quite a few of you have discouraged others by telling them that seeking legal recourse is futile. My experience with an identical situation says that it's not futile, and well worth the small investment. I didn't put out a single word of misinformation. Conversely, you didn't even know that a case like this could be handled remotely.

On a side note, I'll say one thing in Joe Zon's defense, just to play devil's advocate. I can see that the OP was a total pain to deal with, and I can understand why Zon doesn't want to deal with him. But, the honorable thing to do would have been to say, "I don't want to do business with you, so I am refunding your money." But it's well past that point now.

 

[frosty4d]

 

[Jugghaid]

You're convoluting a simple case. You're suing Zon Guitars. As an operation with just a few employees, this falls back to Joe personally,

I only got this far and it is again....wrong. Legally incorrect. Not gonna bother reading further or pursuing this.

 

[foothilla]

I only got this far and it is again....wrong. Legally incorrect. Not gonna bother reading further or pursuing this.

Let me clarify. My business is structured as an LLC, but it's my business. If you make my business pay you $4000, you hurt me personally, you're not hurting my employees.

 

[Jugghaid]

Let me clarify. My business is structured as an LLC, but it's my business. If you hurt my business, you hurt me personally, and I am ultimately the one who suffers (not my employees).

I'm not going to argue with you. Your intentions are good but you are completely incorrect on so many things in your posts it's no longer worth addressing. You believe what you want to believe.

 

[foothilla]

I'm not going to argue with you. Your intentions are good but you are completely incorrect on so many things in your posts it's no longer worth addressing. You believe what you want to believe.

I think of it more as a conversation. Argument implies that I am angry, which I am not. I wish you no ill will. I just don't want people to be discouraged from pursuing simple legal avenues.