Boom Bass Cabinets

[Mike Arnopol]

While I have no dog in this hunt I do understand that patents, copyrights and such are the vehicle used to protect designs. Are there any in place here? If not it should be no big deal. I also know that virtually every speaker design used today including many that are purported to be "original" are anything but truly original. How Is having side ports or down firing woofers different in any significant way from designs that are in use today and at the same time decades old? I don't expect to have our own truly gifted speaker designers that are right here on this website chime in for fear of getting involved in something they don't have a vested interest in, but perhaps some of our speaker gurus that aren't in the business of actually building cabs could help us understand this whole deal. When I see close copy's of anything in this business whether it's instruments or speakers or amps or whatever. I notice the similarities that many brands share. I also understand when someone like Fender doesn't patent their designs they shouldn't be surprised when someone else takes a liking to its form and function and adopts it as their own. Whether you choose to call it stealing, I don't unless it is protected! It may not be nice, it may not make you warm and fuzzy but it's a big ole cold cruel world out there and you better cover your a$$ if you get my drift. These threads make me a bit sad as I think things probably started out innocently enough but when people or partners split ways there are often ruffled feathers to say the least. I recently dissolved a Corp. that I started partly due to dissent among the ranks of the owners. I hope things work out and I wish the Reverand health and happiness. Bless you all, peace Kirk.

I just felt I needed to reply. You are absolutely right that for the most part all of these designs are just contemporary takes on designs that go back as far as 70 years. That doesn't diminish the art of taking these designs and refining them with better drivers that are available and contemporary crossover designs. Or mixing and matching different designs.
The reason I responded (don't want to derail things) is that if the "side port" design that you were referring to (as a multi-decade old design) referred to my cabinets--you don't really know what's inside. They are most definitely not "side ports"
Sorry guys---I just get irked when someone comments on designs that they don't have a working knowledge of.

Back to the BBC cabs----hopefully without the reality show drama. If I want to hear silly stuff I'll just go through the recent Trump speeches.

 

[Mike Arnopol]

Hi Mike. Yeah we met briefly at thst camp. I think you met Drue too. We had a few guys banging away most of the day... lots of noise.

The Xsonic appeared to be a copy of the Lil G with an extra port. I never brought that up here before. They didn't make them for long and switched to traditional designs.

Schroeder had their interior drivers mounts on angled baffle boards, similar to Tech Soundsystems' earlier cabs which AFAIK is where that type of driver orientation started for bass. I currently own an older Tech 212, a Schroeder 1210L and two Glasstone cabs, all ported cabs.

The Tanks are sealed cabs with a lower driver firing down and out through three openings.

Thanks, man. You guys seem like really good guys. Hopefully the Trolldom will die down. For me it took around 30 pages.

 

[Brad Johnson]

I have no idea what Kirk was referring to. If you guys have some kind of beef about your cabs this is not the place. In any event...

I've been told by a couple of TBers that I shouldn't call the three openings on the lower section of our cabs "ports" or "vents". Since we have no vested interest in either term I bow to their expertise. I call them "openings". That seems to be okay.

 

[Brad Johnson]

Thanks, man. You guys seem like really good guys. Hopefully the Trolldom will die down. For me it took around 30 pages.

You too, Mike. Wish I'd had a chance to check your cabs out.

The amazing thing to me is for as adventurous many can be with their basses, the very idea of any out of the box thinking brings on cries of "Heretic!". I'm sure your cabs made a few heads explode.

As someone who always thought that it was better to hold judgement on audio kit until I actually heard it, the mindset here is baffling. It's like we challenged a belief system


I like the fact that some have declared that it was flat out impossible for cabs I've used to operate as described. To me that meant that we were doing the impossible. So it was a strong declaration that unintentionally works in our favor. The cabs obviously do work.

 

[Mike Arnopol]

Hey Brad
No--I've never talked to Kirk. (or at least I don't think so). Sorry---it's obviously not the right place to get into something. Nor do I have any interest in getting into something. It just gets annoying when someone thinks that they know what's inside of a cab that they've never seen. I'm sure you're beginning to get all of the "experts" here telling you what your cab is and isn't. Such is Talkbass.

Good idea in opening the sides a bit. More midrange dispersion. The cab then behaves less like a bandpass and more like a downfiring woofer. Or so I surmise.

Anyhoo---I wish you guys the best. Like I try to tell the other cab makers---there's plenty of room for all of us!

 

[Brad Johnson]

Hey Brad
No--I've never talked to Kirk. (or at least I don't think so). Sorry---it's obviously not the right place to get into something. Nor do I have any interest in getting into something. It just gets annoying when someone thinks that they know what's inside of a cab that they've never seen. I'm sure you're beginning to get all of the "experts" here telling you what your cab is and isn't. Such is Talkbass.

Good idea in opening the sides a bit. More midrange dispersion. The cab then behaves less like a bandpass and more like a downfiring woofer. Or so I surmise.

Anyhoo---I wish you guys the best. Like I try to tell the other cab makers---there's plenty of room for all of us!

Beginning? I wish. We have well over a year under our belt with people who've never heard the cabs seriously badmouthing them in spite of that. It's the nature of the beast here. And before this I used Glasstone cabs and they were declared blasphemous too. Then we got some manufactured nonsense between Glasstone and us, as if we weren't having enough fun. Looks like that has pretty much died down. We'll see.


It doesn't bother me, it means
A. people are talking about them and
B. We must be doing something right to tick people off this bad yet have only very happy customers so far.

And you're right on the side openings. We've had it explained to us here that the bottom driver would only deliver lows because the openings would act as a bandpass when in fact it is acting as a downfiring woofer so it throws mids and lows and in a much wider dispersion than a front ported cabinet. Couple that with the slanted front baffle and the tweeter firing up in addition to forward and we think we've address a couple of big issues that always bugged us as live performers, particularly on the local scene with smaller venues and situations where it's hard to get away from your cab so you can hear it.

Thanks, Mike and continued success with MAS.

 

[Brad Johnson]

Good thing I wasn't looking for validation from you.

What exactly are you looking for? I asked you a question in your other thread about your basic point and you didn't answer it.

 

[Kirk Bryant]

Gee guys calm down please. Firstly Mike Arnopol I never said I had any idea what goes on in your cabs, ever! Also my reference was in no way related to your cabinets at all! I was merely referring to the lower side "openings" on the boombass cabs and thinking that they might be vaguely similar to the top "openings on the audiokenisis Hathor cabs, notice I said vaguely. Only in the sense that they are not in the front or back of the cab. Like most traditional designs.
In one case they seem to be closer to woofers in another by the mid driver. I at no time mentioned or made a comparison to MAS cabs. If I'm not mistaken MAS has applied for a patent so I would guess and of course it's only a guess they firmly believe they have something new to bring to the table. As I would also guess, does Boombass, Brad and Co. In fact I wasn't even comparing the fact that they both have "openings" in the sides or top.
I am in fact interested because I see all these designs as different solutions to the age old problem of wider dispersion. And anything that helps me and my band mates hear better on a loud stage has my interest.
Listen guys I am a FAN not a detractor. I am trying to gain knowledge here. And no Brad, Mike and I have had no beef at all that I'm aware of. I don't think I have participated in the threads on his cabs much if any.
I am HUGE FAN of all you guys that are pushing the envelope of both amps and cabs. If I had the money I would have already bought at least one of both of you're cabs so I could have first hand experience with both.
I know you guys are sometimes on pins and needles talking about this stuff here due to the rules.
In closing I come here to gain more knowledge on a subject I know little about and if I said something that seemed to step on anyone's toes please accept my most humble apology. I certainly did not mean to lump you all into one group or suggest you were doing the same thing. That was never my intention. Gosh I sure hope this clears the air. There was also a reference to trolling and I sure as heck am not trolling, as I said, I'm here to learn.
Whew, I hope we're good now. Carry on, I'm all ears.

 

[Brad Johnson]

Gee guys calm down please. Firstly Mike Arnopol I never said I had any idea what goes on in your cabs, ever! Also my reference was in no way related to your cabinets at all! I was merely referring to the lower side "openings" on the boombass cabs and thinking that they might be vaguely similar to the top "openings on the audiokenisis Hathor cabs, notice I said vaguely. Only in the sense that they are not in the front or back of the cab. Like most traditional designs.
In one case they seem to be closer to woofers in another by the mid driver. I at no time mentioned or made a comparison to MAS cabs. If I'm not mistaken MAS has applied for a patent so I would guess and of course it's only a guess they firmly believe they have something new to bring to the table. As I would also guess, does Boombass, Brad and Co. In fact I'm wasn't even comparing the fact that they both have "openings" in the sides or top.
I am in fact interested because I see all these designs as different solutions to the age old problem of wider dispersion. And anything that helps me and my band mates hear better on a loud stage has my interest.
Listen guys I am a FAN not a detractor. I am trying to gain knowledge here. And no Brad, Mike have had no beef at all that I'm aware of. I don't think I have participated in the threads on his cabs much if any.
I am HUGE FAN of all you guys that are pushing the envelope of both amps and cabs. If I had the money I would have already bought at least one of both of you're cabs so I could have first hand experience with both.
I know you guys are sometimes on pins and needles talking about this stuff here due to the rules.
In closing I come here to gain more knowledge on a subject I know little about and if I said something that seemed to step on anyone's toes please accept my most humble apology. I certainly did not mean to lump you all into one group or suggest you were doing the same thing. That was never my intention. Gosh I sure hope this clears the air. There was also a reference to trolling and I sure as heck am not trolling, as I said, I'm here to learn.
Whew, I hope we're good now. Carry on, I'm all ears.

Kirk, I had no problem with what you wrote. I even "liked" it. It sounded like there might have been an issue between you and Mike based only on Mike's response. So I asked in passing and said if there was this thread isn't the place for it. Lord knows we don't need another issue.


So, sorry about any part I might have played in any confusion in this tangent. We know we didn't invent openings so we have nothing to be bothered about. And thanks again for the encouragement.

 

[Kirk Bryant]

Thanks Brad! I wasn't kidding when I said that if I had the $$ I would already own a Boombass, a MAS, and Audiokinisis cabs. Maybe I'll have to sell my Aggies, Schroeders and a couple of others, (I am going to) and one or two Bergs, not so sure about those, Lol, so I can try all this new bass cab goodness you guys are all creating.

 

[Brad Johnson]

Thanks Brad! I wasn't kidding when I said that if I had the $$ I would already own a Boombass, a MAS, and Audiokinisis cabs. Maybe I'll have to sell my Aggies, Schroeders and a couple of others, (I am going to) and one or two Bergs, not so sure about those, Lol, so I can try all this new bass cab goodness you guys are all creating.

I just appreciate the fact that you have an open mind about new things. And I'm cool with whatever you decide to use... heck, I don't understand why people would feel otherwise.

 

[Mike Arnopol]

Thanks for the clarification, Kirk. My bad. You have no idea how much guys here would say " It's just a reflex cab with side ports". Since our patent was approved I posted drawings of the internals. Nothing like a reflex. But I'd still hear guys saying "it's nothing new, just a side ported reflex". So I wrongly assumed that you were talking about my stuff. I have to get less sensitive and paranoid! (although paranoia here is well founded at times).

The BBC cabs does remind me of Duke's Hathor cabs with the side openings. That's a good idea I think. The Glasstone and Schroeder cabs do function like bandpass as relating to the second woofer where your cab is more of a downfiring woofer. To me, the upper bass and low mids are what we key off of for pitch and rhythmic definition. I doubt you'll get much of the upper mids from the downfiring woofer but you should get upper bass and low mids which is critical IMO. I don't have much experience with your cabs but I think that they should have some neat dispersion things going on.

 

[Mr_O'B]

The "Pastor" makes cryptic accusations and people want you (Brad Johnson) to
explain yourself?

Brad, you are a better man than I am.

 

[seamonkey]

There's nothing novel in these and similar designs. search on Push Pull Subwoofer

Bassbox Pro can model several different configurations

Except for horn loaded cabs, you won't get "more" out of the drivers than a standard bass reflex "ported" design. There is absolutely nothing has ever measured or been heard to be better. It's all marketing.

 

[Brad Johnson]

The "Pastor" makes cryptic accusations and people want you (Brad Johnson) to
explain yourself?

Brad, you are a better man than I am.

We've been dealing with the accusations since August 2014 when it started. Some people still want to believe what they want to believe.

 

[Brad Johnson]

Groundhog Day @ TB.

There's nothing novel in these and similar designs. search on Push Pull Subwoofer

This is not what's going on with our cabinets. Guess again.


Heck, are all of your finite statements based on you not even understanding how our cabs are designed? After all this (I've explained them several times) that's amazing.

Bassbox Pro can model several different configurations

Except for horn loaded cabs, you won't get "more" out of the drivers than a standard bass reflex "ported" design. There is absolutely nothing has ever measured or been heard to be better. It's all marketing.

Speaking of things we've been dealing with for a long time... like a dog with a bone.


It's the broken record of people who need to guess what our cabinets do... and incorrectly as usual. After all, you couldn't possibly be wrong. I guess I was wrong after all about this stuff dying down, Mike. I look forward to page 30.


Please model our cabinet once and for all and get it over with. No one has so far. We're using the drivers in much smaller cabinets... so while you may see no advantage to that, people who don't want to have to carry larger gear may have a different opinion. Similar sized cabinets usually require two for medium size and up gigs. But I guess the fact that one of our cabs is plenty for most people is also the same thing as having to carry (and BUY) two similarly sized cabs. Nothing new, just marketing.

And by all means show how a standard bass reflex ported design will have the same dispersion as ours. We really only have the same dispersion as your ideal cabinet.... and it's just marketing.

Should be easy... you have the program. Do it.

The shear arrogance in your statement about "better" is amazing. Have you heard our cabs? That would seem to be mandatory to make a declaration that nothing could ever be heard to be better than a standard bass reflex "ported" design.

Do you decide what's better for everyone? Apparently.


Sorry if I seem aggressive, folks. I'm simply not going to let people like this hijack the conversation with their "expertise"which at best might be educated guesses. Or worse in this case. Coming to hard conclusions based on educated guesses speaks for itself. I know it's what some people need to do but enough is enough. Let's see those plots that show how our cabs don't do what customers think they do. The sooner the better. And if you can't...

 

[Mike Arnopol]

Hey Brad
Masseur Monkey spent quite a long time on my thread telling me how my design actually worked and telling my customers that they were being duped. I tried to reason with the dude---but to no avail. He told me what was inside my cabs without seeing any drawings . And told me what they sounded like and their limitations. Without ever trying one.
On many threads guys have asked his playing credentials with no response. I don't think he has any. Ignore him---he'll eventually go away.

 

[odarellmc]

No, that's not enough said unless you feel you have the right to make things up.

As it is you are clueless about what happened... yet you speak as if you do. Who are you (your name?) and what role did you play in this? My experience is first hand.

If you're here to give Pastor Glass advice on how he should've handled this, knock yourselves out. The entire "conflict" was made up. But then... if you were directly involved you'd know that. Everyone else who was involved knows the truth and it bears no resemblance to your story.

I wish we were done with this nonsense but some people, particularly ill-informed people, still seem to have an axe to grind. Grind away and I'll keep correcting it.

I'm not grinding an axe in fact what brought me here was reviews about your Cabs I had previously been looking at Glasstone as well, and when I saw your design I was like...wth, then I asked about the two heee on TB and people started jumping on me like I had said something taboo, then I knew something was wrong with the picture I then searched TB some more and found this thread and i see others had the same reaction to seeing your design after seeing Gladstone's. So if you want to call it an improvement on his design, or whatever, but my initial impression without reading the back story was that your Cabs were a copy of Gladstone's, maybe "variations" of the sort is common in the design world...not knocking the Cabs as I've heard only good things, but don't get pissed off if people get the impression they're similar to Glasstone especially given your history with Glasstone.. Ijs

 

[abarson]

One of the industry's most esteemed speaker designers, Bill Fitzmaurice, permanently left Talkbass after getting fed up with the nonsense that some people obstinately clung to and proselytized. At some point you just need to ignore the naysayers and get on doing what you do best.

Part of the problem with new designs is that the builder often can't economically distribute them widely enough for us (the unwashed masses) to evaluate, which leaves the field wide open for speculation and skepticism. This is a hurdle that I don't know how gets circumvented, except by grassroots adoption. The problem can be exacerbated if the designer (for whatever reason, patent pending, etc.) isn't adept at disclosing what uniquely sets their product apart, and sometimes text isn't the best medium. This is a general observation, not a targeted critique of anyone.

I applaud all those willing to follow the path of real R&D and not the market dictates, although the payoff may not be large or widely recognized. My own experiment with speaker design humbled me into realizing that I don't have the temperament to do it right, and will leave it to those with the passion to follow through. My own experience tells me that only my ears are good judges of what sounds right to me.

 

[Brad Johnson]

Hey Brad
Masseur Monkey spent quite a long time on my thread telling me how my design actually worked and telling my customers that they were being duped. I tried to reason with the dude---but to no avail. He told me what was inside my cabs without seeing any drawings . And told me what they sounded like and their limitations. Without ever trying one.
On many threads guys have asked his playing credentials with no response. I don't think he has any. Ignore him---he'll eventually go away.

Yeah, but then he pops up again and to some folks he actually sounds authoritative because they don't realize that he's willing to go way out on a limb with little to no foundation. So here he is again. Unfortunately what he does is allowed.

This might make for a nice t-shirt for that gang: "Audio Savant: I don't need to actually hear things, I already know what anything could possibly sound like".

As noble as the quest is to "save" people from things he either doesn't like or doesn't understand, how about he lets people make up their own minds? Then if he's right he can say told ya so... unless he's wrong in which case the silence will be deafening. I've yet to see any of these guys admit that they were wrong after the fact. That tells me all I need to know about them.