Rig for ultra low notes around 20 hertz

[Short4since64]

16Hz lowest note. Eight 15" speakers in a true infinite baffle (back wave dumped into the basement) Each one driven by a chassis with a pair of KT88s, so that would be about 500 watts.. Sine wave generator triggered by the pedals of a pipe organ, Unless a higher harmonic stop was pulled, couldn't hear it, just felt a throbbing pressure deep in the body. That feeling was what inspired me to play bass in a band when everyone else wanted to play guitar or drums, and playing the organ for Mass doesn't attract girls.
This was in the 60s, Father said the contra-bass plays directly to the soul. Learned that electronic sub-bass was common on the organs in smaller churches, it worked as the congregation effectively was seated inside a huge speaker cabinet.

 

[walking_line]

There are acoustic instruments like the controller bass that hit c0. I just think that it rarely has use. Maybe doomsday.

I was going to mention the octobass, but you beat me to it. My buddy Eric plays it in the OSM.

It’s cool, in a make your pant legs move parlour trick kind of way. But there’s a reason why it didn’t really catch on in 1850.

 

[Dave TB Killer]

I am considering building a 40 inch scale bass that is capable of playing ultra low notes. It seems that there are many obstacles on the electronics end with rig choice. Right now I just have a rumble 40 and don't want to start the build until I can figure out what I am up against gear wise to make the most of the future instrument. Thank you in advance for anyone sharing their solutions to what seems like a complex problem.

The Brown Note! Your gonna make people poopie their pants!

 

[el murdoque]

Don't listen to those naysayers, If you can dream it, you can make it happen.

Of course it's debatable if you really need full power below 30Hz, because that takes SERIOUS effort - and massive DiY skills or a bottomless wallet.
Because of that, I have zero experience with those frequencies. I was never interested in going far below 30.


A capable sub, and by capable sub I mean something loaded with double 18s, like the Seeburg G sub 1802 - plus a power amp that can keep up, something with roughly 4kW and a frequency splitter.
Also, you should bin your Rumble and get something that works along with the double 18 rig, so at least a well made 500W head and well made 4x10 cabinet. The regular bass rig will get everything above 80-115 Hz (you need to experiment a bit with the crossover point until you find what works for you).

Also, some serious EQ is a great help. One that can offer multiple points below 100Hz so you can tailor the sound to the room you're in.


Some notes from personal experience:
You don't do 30Hz at bedroom volume with any kind of authority.
It starts working just below rehearsal volume with SPL to match acoustic drums.
Those 18s need to pump some air to get the job done.
Beware - even if your neighbors are chill, it's gonna carry a lot further than you might think.

Try to do it with borrowed gear first before you invest in a rig like that. Chances are you're not gonna like it much.
The actual usefulness of that whole thing is very limited. You need a LOT of room in the mix. If you're doing experimental dub or drum&bass stuff with a drummer, it can be great, because you're able to shift between bass and sub bass.

Any kind of metal music with distorted guitars that are downtuned will, with very high probability, sound like excrement and will instantly sound a lot better when you switch off the "mud avalanche generator".

 

[SerfBassie]

There are plenty of possible uses for content below 50Hz, but it’s important for it to be used constructively and not to create other potentially worse issues.

I agree. The older I get the more I feel it is of utmost importance to always serve the song

 

[SerfBassie]

Very accurate. My cabs hit low-E fundamental easily (3db hump at 45Hz then a sharp dropoff according to TS calculations) but that's only for me to feel and enjoy. The man at the other end of the snake applies the HPF (and the notch on the kick drum at resonance) so what the audience hears is snappy and free of mud and rumble.

Apparently in the bass drum there are frequencies below 20. just trying to see if there is a better way to pass that signal along for a low low bass.

 

[SerfBassie]

Don't listen to those naysayers, If you can dream it, you can make it happen.

Of course it's debatable if you really need full power below 30Hz, because that takes SERIOUS effort - and massive DiY skills or a bottomless wallet.
Because of that, I have zero experience with those frequencies. I was never interested in going far below 30.


A capable sub, and by capable sub I mean something loaded with double 18s, like the Seeburg G sub 1802 - plus a power amp that can keep up, something with roughly 4kW and a frequency splitter.
Also, you should bin your Rumble and get something that works along with the double 18 rig, so at least a well made 500W head and well made 4x10 cabinet. The regular bass rig will get everything above 80-115 Hz (you need to experiment a bit with the crossover point until you find what works for you).

Also, some serious EQ is a great help. One that can offer multiple points below 100Hz so you can tailor the sound to the room you're in.


Some notes from personal experience:
You don't do 30Hz at bedroom volume with any kind of authority.
It starts working just below rehearsal volume with SPL to match acoustic drums.
Those 18s need to pump some air to get the job done.
Beware - even if your neighbors are chill, it's gonna carry a lot further than you might think.

Try to do it with borrowed gear first before you invest in a rig like that. Chances are you're not gonna like it much.
The actual usefulness of that whole thing is very limited. You need a LOT of room in the mix. If you're doing experimental dub or drum&bass stuff with a drummer, it can be great, because you're able to shift between bass and sub bass.

Any kind of metal music with distorted guitars that are downtuned will, with very high probability, sound like excrement and will instantly sound a lot better when you switch off the "mud avalanche generator".

Thanks for the positive words and for sharing your experience and knowledge. I think if I was to get a bass specific woofer like the kalium one, really thick strings to stop the mud and a preamp with eq that there might be a chance that I can get the lower fundamentals to work.

What is strange in a lot of this discussion is that most of us dont have gear that lets this sound through and yet everyone is saying we cant hear it.

Mikes dont relay sounds they cannot mike...

I am such a noob that I dont think I will be able to represent having such heavy duty gear that you mentioned but its good to know that it exists and that I may be able to prove my self as a player to earn that type of tone gold equipment a few years in the future.

 

[SerfBassie]

Just for reference, listen to the first few seconds of


It's amazing how much overtones and harmonics can be used to fool our ears into hearing notes as lower.

This kind of stuff blows my mind. Thanks for sharing.

 

[SerfBassie]

you don't want frequencies that low.

Tell that to people who play the double contra bass flute.

 

[SerfBassie]

This gets trotted out every time the subject of reproducing fundamentals comes up. There is actual research (done in the early telephone and military radio days) that led people to realize that, to get good intelligibility, you didn't have to reproduce the speech fundamentals - 300 Hz is OK for that. But it isn't natural sounding, and for a long conversation (a one hour meeting), having at least 100Hz reproduction for speech is a very good idea.

When it comes to music, yes, you can play a 4 string bass through a bass cab that doesn't reproduce the low E fundamental well, and it'll sound "OK" - An SVT (and pretty much every other bass cab on the market) does that. However, it's not as impactful as a rig that actually reproduces the low notes' fundamentals. If you get a chance to play a 5 or 6 string bass through a rig that reproduces 30 Hz well (I get to do that on a regular basis), you 'll quickly realize that having a well reproduced fundamental is a VERY good thing.

Big Tours have line array main speaker rigs that go down to 60 Hz, no problem. But they all carry subs that go down to 30 Hz - why? If you're playing the low B, the mains can do every part of the signal but the fundamental - is it worth it? They spend a LOT of money to rent, carry, set up, and drive those speakers - there is considerable expense necessary to reproduce that fundamental. Why do they do it? Because the added impact is worth it.

Thanks mic guy. Someone else mentioned he likes connecting with the audience with the fundamental as well. Makes me want to figure this out since on some level at some times it seems to be of use or benefit. In the guitar world there seems to be a good amount of success with modelers but I am concerned to try those with bass because if most of the amps cant do it how could the modelers.

I am optimistic that with the waves of technology development that seems to be happening that this will get better.

 

[SerfBassie]

Not true, but additional skill, responsibilities and good judgement come along with substantial quantities of sub-50Hz content.

Cryptic but clearly no horsing around.

 

[FullumMusic]

Thanks for the insight. I was looking into getting a small subwoofer as a start but don't know what the signal chain would be needed ro split. I have an A/B box stop switch but it almost sounds like this needs a signal choke of some kind on each side to make the most of the respective amps. Someone once told me a pre amp should also be up stream of the subwoofer but I was not sure what that was all about.
I am just a recreational hobbyist but the idea of getting on stage is getting more appeal. I think many venues have subs these days bit reasonable balance is the key it seems.
Thanks again for the insight. I find this fascinating to figure out.



Thanks for the genuinely modern and helpful tips. Looking at signal graph can be a very useful way to listen with your eyes rather than being seduced by the sirens song of flame top sunbursts.

Welcome, and yeah, when including a sub you're kinda getting into the territory of making your rig into a mini-PA system.

Where and how you split the signal has a bit to do with what gear you already have, and the sub. You pedals most likely are the wrong tools to use because they're all designed to handle Instrument Level. Depending on how you set up the rig, the gear needs to be handling either Line Level or Powered Signal.

Pre-amp is literally an amplifier before the amplifier. "Pre"-amp. It's an amp that boosts the gain a small amount to get it to a useable level for the power amp to then boost to a high enough level to actually move the speaker and blast music from. All your power amps should be after the pre-amp. The gain & EQ section on your bass amp are a Pre-amp. Then there are pedal pre-amps and onboard pre-amps (aka active electronics). They're all essentially the same thing in different places, with some slight differences as to what they're outputting.

In a basic setup with a bass, some pedals, an amp, and a cab, think of it in two sections: Before the power amp, and after the power amp. Your bass, your pedals, you pre-amps, etc, are all before the power amp and all handle low signal levels. The power amp does its job, amplifies the signal to very high levels and moves the speakers. This is why instrument cables and speaker cables are very different and should never be interchanged.

--

You either need a self-powered sub, or a sub and a power amp for it. Your signal should go from your bass, through all your pedals & pre-amp, and then into a crossover. The crossover should handle the signal level coming from your pre-amp and set to a frequency near the top of the sub's range, and the bottom of your bass cab's range. 80Hz? (it really depends on your gear.) Then the crossover goes into your bass amp's input, and sub amp's input. Then you have to adjust the gain and levels on both power amps so they balance when you play.

Or, you could get rid of your bass amp altogether and just buy a powered PA speaker that has an internal crossover that daisy-chains to a powered sub. Go from your pre-amp line-out to the powered speaker's line-in. Basically like going direct into your own personal mini-PA. This might be easiest to put tother. You have all your bass stuff up to the pre-amp, and then the PA stuff that was designed to work together if you get a powered speaker and powered sub from the same manufacture.

These are not the only ways to do it, and also abridged versions. If you're going to actually do it, make sure to read up on Mic vs Instrument vs Line vs Powered signal levels. Make sure you read the spec sheets for all the gear you have and all the gear you buy to make sure it has the proper ins & outs at the proper levels.

--

If you do get it going well, it'll be a fun little rig with lots of bass for when you're playing small venues that don't have their own subs. If you're playing a venue with a proper PA and subs, they'll probably be taking your DI signal, making your rig either redundant or actually a bit of a pain in the arse. Especially with your subs and their subs wreaking havoc on each other's waves.

 

[SerfBassie]

16Hz lowest note. Eight 15" speakers in a true infinite baffle (back wave dumped into the basement) Each one driven by a chassis with a pair of KT88s, so that would be about 500 watts.. Sine wave generator triggered by the pedals of a pipe organ, Unless a higher harmonic stop was pulled, couldn't hear it, just felt a throbbing pressure deep in the body. That feeling was what inspired me to play bass in a band when everyone else wanted to play guitar or drums, and playing the organ for Mass doesn't attract girls.
This was in the 60s, Father said the contra-bass plays directly to the soul. Learned that electronic sub-bass was common on the organs in smaller churches, it worked as the congregation effectively was seated inside a huge speaker cabinet.

Beautiful.

My kids were drawn to an experiential exhibit called obsidian that was in the dark with unusual sounds and rumbles. Everyone seemed to connect to it even though it was potentially haunting. Everyone in the exhibit seemed relaxed by the ultra deep rumbles.

I cant help but feel inspired by your comment to make beautiful music.

 

[SerfBassie]

Welcome, and yeah, when including a sub you're kinda getting into the territory of making your rig into a mini-PA system.

Where and how you split the signal has a bit to do with what gear you already have, and the sub. You pedals most likely are the wrong tools to use because they're all designed to handle Instrument Level. Depending on how you set up the rig, the gear needs to be handling either Line Level or Powered Signal.

Pre-amp is literally an amplifier before the amplifier. "Pre"-amp. It's an amp that boosts the gain a small amount to get it to a useable level for the power amp to then boost to a high enough level to actually move the speaker and blast music from. All your power amps should be after the pre-amp. The gain & EQ section on your bass amp are a Pre-amp. Then there are pedal pre-amps and onboard pre-amps (aka active electronics). They're all essentially the same thing in different places, with some slight differences as to what they're outputting.

In a basic setup with a bass, some pedals, an amp, and a cab, think of it in two sections: Before the power amp, and after the power amp. Your bass, your pedals, you pre-amps, etc, are all before the power amp and all handle low signal levels. The power amp does its job, amplifies the signal to very high levels and moves the speakers. This is why instrument cables and speaker cables are very different and should never be interchanged.

--

You either need a self-powered sub, or a sub and a power amp for it. Your signal should go from your bass, through all your pedals & pre-amp, and then into a crossover. The crossover should handle the signal level coming from your pre-amp and set to a frequency near the top of the sub's range, and the bottom of your bass cab's range. 80Hz? (it really depends on your gear.) Then the crossover goes into your bass amp's input, and sub amp's input. Then you have to adjust the gain and levels on both power amps so they balance when you play.

Or, you could get rid of your bass amp altogether and just buy a powered PA speaker that has an internal crossover that daisy-chains to a powered sub. Go from your pre-amp line-out to the powered speaker's line-in. Basically like going direct into your own personal mini-PA. This might be easiest to put tother. You have all your bass stuff up to the pre-amp, and then the PA stuff that was designed to work together if you get a powered speaker and powered sub from the same manufacture.

These are not the only ways to do it, and also abridged versions. If you're going to actually do it, make sure to read up on Mic vs Instrument vs Line vs Powered signal levels. Make sure you read the spec sheets for all the gear you have and all the gear you buy to make sure it has the proper ins & outs at the proper levels.

--

If you do get it going well, it'll be a fun little rig with lots of bass for when you're playing small venues that don't have their own subs. If you're playing a venue with a proper PA and subs, they'll probably be taking your DI signal, making your rig either redundant or actually a bit of a pain in the arse. Especially with your subs and their subs wreaking havoc on each other's waves.

Thank you so much for your detailed response. This is exactly the level of detail I was hoping for and explains how to make what I was trying to do. Had to reread a few times to understand but I think you have me sold on getting a sub woofer and a simple pre amp. I think this HAS to be non clipping or this whole thing will be pointless. I am pretty confident based on many prototype explorations that the future instrument will support the signal generation end of it so a potential DI scenario will be fine. Also I just don't think I will be on stage in the next 5 years at least.

Thanks too for explaining about the different types of chords. I did not know why the cables I have bothered to have instrument cables stamped on them. Now I know and will will protect these more with good care since the low level signal movement is likely more susseptable to dammage.

 

[tpa]

One song where playing with low frequences creates an interesting dramatic effect is "Three Wishes" with Roger Waters. I don't know how deep they go but we are in turntable rumble territory. But for quite short.

 

[Passinwind]

Thanks for the positive words and for sharing your experience and knowledge. I think if I was to get a bass specific woofer like the kalium one, really thick strings to stop the mud and a preamp with eq that there might be a chance that I can get the lower fundamentals to work.

By total coincidence, I heard from Skip Fantry at Kalium yesterday on a completely unrelated topic. I'd encourage you to reach out directly to him for some input, as I haven't really been keeping up on his post-Plague work on the sound reinforcement side. Skip has a lot of first hand insights built on physical experience with low tuned basses and those crazy thick strings he makes, and he's seen a lot of dead ends along the way that you might as well avoid if possible. Oh, and he's also a very talented luthier with plenty of experience with very long scale instruments.

 

[SerfBassie]

By total coincidence, I heard from Skip Fantry at Kalium yesterday, on a completely unrelated topic. I'd encourage you to reach out directly to him for some input, as I haven't really been keeping up on his post-Plague work on the sound reinforcement side. Skip has a lot of first hand insights built on physical experience with low tuned basses and those crazy thick strings he makes, and he's seen a lot of dead ends along the way that you might as well avoid if possible. Oh, and he's also a very talented luthier with plenty of experience with very long scale instruments.

Thanks for kind words and on point input.

I spoke to him earlier this week and he was very helpful and kind on the phone. He was a sound engineer so his knowledge quickly became too much for me to digest for me since I don't know a lot about this. I am thinking of calling him back to explain his sub woofer a little more. I dont get why one is 400 and one is 1200. Scared to waste money on a rig that might not even work and before I can even play well. He did make a point of saying that the woofer was designed to maintain good tone so I think that will be my place to start. I just don't like knowing so little that I only ask one retailer but it seems like I cant go wrong with his tips as it appears he is a on the vanguard at this point.

 

[SerfBassie]

One song where playing with low frequences creates an interesting dramatic effect is "Three Wishes" with Roger Waters. I don't know how deep they go but we are in turntable rumble territory. But for quite short.

Thanks for pointing that out. I am pumped to give it a listen.

I think like any good effect it cannot be expected to be used all of the time or in in all songs.

Kind of like a triangle or a cowbell in percussion. Could get tired fast but sometimes it is just enough to add a bit here and there.

 

[Passinwind]

Thanks for kind words and on point input.

I spoke to him earlier this week and he was very helpful and kind on the phone. He was a sound engineer so his knowledge quickly became too much for me to digest for me since I don't know a lot about this. I am thinking of calling him back to explain his sub woofer a little more. I don't get why one is 400 and one is 1200. Scared to waste money on a rig that might not even work and before I can even play well. He did make a point of saying that the woofer was designed to maintain good tone so I think that will be my place to start. I just don't like knowing so little that I only ask one retailer but it seems like I cant go wrong with his tips as it appears he is a on the vanguard at this point.

I've known Skip for many years and have enjoyed some great face to face conversations. If you have been able to talk to him on the phone at length you're already on a good track. @DukeLeJeune has some good knowledge on this stuff as well, maybe he'll chip in if he happens to catch my ping. Sadly a lot of the other former TB'ers who have or had a deep interest in this subject have moved on, for instance Greenboy was the one who put Skip, Duke, and me together in the first place.

Lots of other worthy input from some of the usual suspects here too, which is always nice to see.

 

[el murdoque]

Thanks for the positive words and for sharing your experience and knowledge. I think if I was to get a bass specific woofer like the kalium one, really thick strings to stop the mud and a preamp with eq that there might be a chance that I can get the lower fundamentals to work.

What is strange in a lot of this discussion is that most of us dont have gear that lets this sound through and yet everyone is saying we cant hear it.

Mikes dont relay sounds they cannot mike...

I am such a noob that I dont think I will be able to represent having such heavy duty gear that you mentioned but its good to know that it exists and that I may be able to prove my self as a player to earn that type of tone gold equipment a few years in the future.

I was in the lucky situation to have enough stuff sitting around to try my hand at this whole thing. The mud is not only in the string of the bass. I used a multiscale five which was downtuned a full step. Played unamplified, the feel was solid.

My equipment were two subs with 18" woofers, about 3'x3'x2' in size and a two man carry each, powered by a 4,5kW power amp - in combination with two 2x12" regular bass cabinets powered by 500w. The subs were placed exactly spaced apart for proper coupling (it's sometimes handy to have an audio engineer to call a friend), and those went to 30Hz (-3dB). Using this rig to stay an octave below the guitar playing metal was plain old terrible. I did have enough power at my fingertips to EQ any tone I liked and make it loud enough to get through the mix. When I did so, It felt like I was overpowering everything else. The raw power was .. .fascinating ... but only for me.