Professional courtesy? Or every man for himself?

[Steadfast]

As an old hat at playing paying gigs since 1975.... doing the right thing is far better than what is probably a small gig in the scheme of life.

99.99% of gigs out there are small time bar gigs with little pay. How much is your integrity worth?

 

[BassAndReeds]

So last Saturday I was fortunate enough to be invited to a local jam. What I thought was going to be five or six guys hanging around turned out to be a major party with about 100 guests and 10 or so different musicians.
One of these musicians was an incredibly talented female vocalist who could sing her butt off and possessed a great deal of charisma. Fantastic performer.
She was impressed with my playing, especially my sense of rhythm and implied she'd be interested in bringing me on board. It's HER band, not a democracy, and I'm fine with that. I have no problem riding the coat tails of someone who possesses her level of talent.
Here's the rub. Her current bassist is an acquaintance of mine who plays in our worship band. So my question is: should I actively pursue this opportunity and risk the potential for bad feelings? I've wanted to back up a female vocalist like this for quite some time. I know there's always a potential for that whole "the grass is greener" thing but I'm a huge Joplin fan and this girls got it.
What do you think? Go for it or honor my buddies position and decline?

Question: I'm curious, and there's no wrong answer here. Try to be objective in your answer. What would you want to happen to yourself, in the case that a bandleader was unhappy with your playing? What would your feelings be if they pursued other players? (Don't even consider who would replace you)

Some popular answers a most likely (and it no particular order):
1. Whatever, I have too many other gigs anyhow
2. Wow, they're awful prickish to go behind my back
3. Good riddance, glad bad weeds remove themselves out of my life
etc...

 

[RickyWoo]

4. I didn't want to be in a band where people don't think I'm good enough anyway.

 

[Nev375]

Whether you know him or not, I wouldn't want the karma of stepping on another player's gig.

I'd tell her that you are available to sub should her current bassist need a night off.

That puts the ball back in her court for any backstabbery and I'd pay close attention to how things go down from there.

 

[Not yet]

Wasn't living in Chicago at time, sat in w a known Bluesband bout year ago and had a great set. BL gave me his card and some of same vibe OP got. It's a good band

The Bass Player couldn't have been friendlier offering his bass to a visitor and chatting afterwards.

Live in Chicago now and if offer resurfaced I'd say I was available as backup out of respect, FWIW, Karma thing to me

 

[dmac1961]

IMO, "professional courtesy" would be not involving yourself in personnel matters of a band that you are currently not a member of.

 

[MDBass]

Pull him aside. Tell him what she said to you. Ask him how he feels about it. Take it from there.

I would jump at the chance (and have many times) to work with a talented lead singer with charisma and a vision for her band. But I wouldn't want it to look like I did something underhanded or stole someone's slot in the process. Maybe you two can work out a rotating schedule or something?

In the end, it will be her choice, and having a talk with him up front and getting that all out in the open takes the schmuck label off of you.

Nope. Kind of shocking how many people agree with this. A rotating schedule? What?

The other player is an acquaintance, not a friend, and pulling him aside to tell him that his boss said he plays like a robot and wants to fire him in lieu of yourself to "see how he feels about it" has no upside.

How the singer deals with the current bass player is between them, period; putting yourself in the middle is both incredibly unprofessional and may very well sour the singer on giving you the gig for creating needless backtalk and drama.

People lose gigs all the time, for a variety of reasons; if you take it personally to the point of bad mouthing your successors, you're in the wrong business and will quickly find yourself unhirable.

 

[NoiseNinja]

Again, I have to ask: Why? To what end?
But this time, I'll answer myself: To satisfy your idea of what it is to be nice to people. You are clinging rigidly to that for some local moral crusade, despite it's efficacy being brought into question with some bloody good arguments and examples in my opinion.

Do you not think, having read some of the potential problems of this course of action (telling the guy up front, of the conversation with the BL, before she gets to speak to him), that your moral compass may be just a bit on the blink here? Can you not also see that a more neutral course of action would avoid those problems? Will you not entertain the idea that there is also a moral responsibility to the BL who of course would not expect it to go any further.

Anything anyone ever says to me is in confidence unless they tell me otherwise. I have people I trust with my life, my non-existent kids and up to half my bow-tie collection who I would not tell anothers' secret to. It's not my secret to tell. To repeat it strikes me as a touch too "inadmissable" and a whole smashing uppercut too "snitchy".

As Sir Humphrey Appleby said, "He that would keep a secret must keep it secret that he hath a secret to keep."

Uhm, no, I think you got something wrong somewhere.

All wrong in fact, and wouldn't you be guilty in the exact same thing you accuse me for just right there, then?

My first response to OP was in fact something the like of:

"If you really want the job, then I think the right thing to do is to talk with the singer (aka bandleader), and tell her that you are in fact really interested, but that you need to talk with the bass player of her band first explaining the situation, since he is your friend!"

I even had to point out that detail several times since, as it was a quite crucial point of my advice many seemed to "accidentally" have missed to get their point through.

Also I simply don't get what your last remark about keeping a secret is about in this context.

Does it mean something like: "If a complete stranger told you that he was going to rob your friend (well acquaintances) in all confidentiality and give you half the money giving you didn't tell anyone, then you would keep it a secret to protect the strangers confidentiality"?

Yes, that does indeed strike me as an honerable principle.

 

[fhm555]

Yup, kind of what some others have said. I wonder, is her band up and running? If so, then why is she going to jam sessions? That said, you could still talk to your bud first. Possible win-win if you do that.

If her band is up and running and she's going to jams, my first thought is she simply loves to sing. Second thought would be she's working with what she has while she hunts for what she wants. Perhaps she's looking for what she is hearing in her head, but not hearing on the bandstand.

I don't hang with people possessed of fragile egos so if i'm asked to replace a friend in a non democratic situation and i wanted the job, i'd take it, just as i would expect them to do if the situation were reversed. It's a job so it's nothing personal and it's not me being unfaithful to my friend by lobbying for their job behind their back.

If OP's friend is sketchy in the ego department i would certainly not mention the offer before i accepted if i planned to accept the offer. Nothing kicks off a new professional relationship like blindsiding your new boss with an enraged soon to be ex employee.

Last, if OP feels they cannot accept the job without informing their friend, i would suggest the OP make those feelings known to the BL first, then all three get together to break the news. It may not soften the blow and the frienship may not survive, but any chance of additional "he said she said" agita, false rumors, or misconceptions can be laid to rest up front.

 

[Ox Boris]

As an old hat at playing paying gigs since 1975.... doing the right thing is far better than what is probably a small gig in the scheme of life.

99.99% of gigs out there are small time bar gigs with little pay. How much is your integrity worth?

You think not talking to the church guy is the wrong thing and shows a lack of integrity. Is that correct?
One only has integrity in as much as others agree with your actions. It would appear, judging by the small sample in this thread, that anybody disagreeing with you and deciding to mind their own business would not suffer any widespread cheapening of their integrity. There are still others who would view the act which you advocate, as a gross betrayal of a private conversation.
Then there's me, who just thinks you're an over-pious numpty, which, believe me, is quite a term of endearment around these parts.

 

[MDBass]

Reading through more of the replies makes me wonder if people know what "acquaintance" means.

No one is stealing a gig from a friend, he just happens to know the person who's getting replaced in passing; the current guy is on the way out regardless of whether or not the OP takes the gig.

 

[Mantis Tobaggan]

 

[iTzPrime]

You like her music ? Take the gig.
Maybe the singer doesn't mash well with the bassist and she just told you his playing is "robotic".
If the guy is your friend he will understand it, if he isn't your friend one reason more to take the gig.

Talking to your acquaintance at the church would be highly unprofessional. I have seen people getting fired for involving the party they will replace.

I am from a small city in Austria, and the metal scene is fairly small, so getting replaced and replacing friends is fairly common. No one bats an eye for it. That is just the way it is!

Take the gig!

 

[Steadfast]

You think not talking to the church guy is the wrong thing and shows a lack of integrity. Is that correct?
One only has integrity in as much as others agree with your actions. It would appear that anybody disagreeing with you and minding their own business would not suffer any cheapening of their integrity. There are still others who would view the act which you advocate as a gross betrayal of a private conversation.
Then there's me, who just thinks you're an over-pious numpty, which, believe me, is quite a term of endearment around these parts.

...and I understand. I am assuming that the OP is a Christian...we do act based on a World view that is very specific..

If he is a Christian he needs to ask himself, "me wanting this gig so badly--is it my flesh or God speaking?" The OP and I know Biblically it can't be God speaking. With this in mind...he knows what his course of action should be. I don't expect a non-Christian to understand. Our World view is that life on Earth is a VERY short temporary stop.

Plus--I never said betray the conversation with the singer. In fact--I gave several ways to deal with it.

 

[Nev375]

Reading through more of the replies makes me wonder if people know what "acquaintance" means.

No one is stealing a gig from a friend, he just happens to know the person who's getting replaced in passing; the current guy is on the way out regardless of whether or not the OP takes the gig.

So if you had the opportunity to sleep with the hot wife of an acquaintance, would you?
She says she's going to leave him soon anyway.

 

[Pumpkin]

...and I understand. I am assuming that the OP is a Christian...we do act based on a World view that is very specific..

If he is a Christian he needs to ask himself, "me wanting this gig so badly--is it my flesh or God speaking?" The OP and I know Biblically it can't be God speaking. With this in mind...he knows what his course of action should be. I don't expect a non-Christian to understand. Our World view is that life on Earth is a VERY short temporary stop.

 

[NoiseNinja]

That's fair. I just didn't care for said initial post. That's not to suggest that anyone should care for what I do or don't care for. Just rubbed me the wrong way. I stand by my posts in that the OP should stay out of it. It's not just the integrity of the person losing their bass gig here. It's the integrity of the OP and the BL, as I've said before. Leave band issues in the hands of band members. The OP isn't a band member and might end up with a much larger dilemma on their hands.

If you don't care about my initial post, then you miss my whole point.

Much of what I posted isn't aimed agianst OP but other people who posted opinions on what he should do.

So that will mean you are fine with me picking out stuff I disagree with from your posts out of context, just so that I can get a controversy going with you.

Not to say that I will, just find that as a tad strange attitude.

 

[Ox Boris]

What would you want to happen to yourself, in the case that a bandleader was unhappy with your playing? What would your feelings be if they pursued other players?

As Cheap Trick said: I want you to want me.
Nothing else is good enough. And I'd be mortified if you kept me on and made yourself miserable.

 

[MDBass]

Whether you know him or not, I wouldn't want the karma of stepping on another player's gig.

I'd tell her that you are available to sub should her current bassist need a night off.

That puts the ball back in her court for any backstabbery and I'd pay close attention to how things go down from there.

Firing a bass player for not being the right fit isn't "backstabbery", it's just how the business works; replacing someone who has been let go for reasons totally unrelated to you is the most normal thing in the world.

If you avoided any gigs that involved replacing someone else, you'd never gig at all aside from with bands you started from the ground up; that's not a viable career choice.

 

[Ox Boris]

Whether you know him or not, I wouldn't want the karma of stepping on another player's gig.

No such thing is happening in any way.
It's happening as much as Karma does.